Best VH amp?

[jof006]

It's cool if you could try a 12000 series even on an attenuator. It's the sound your looking for.

The power tubes running full is IMO what gives you the harmonic overtones. A MV just doesn't sound the same.

It seems that a good route to early EVH Brown sound is:
12xxx Plexi variac'ed down -> attenuator -> slave power amp

So does anyone build such a beast with all that contained in one head cabinet? (how about it George?)
That would be superb.

[rgorke]

It's cool if you could try a 12000 series even on an attenuator. It's the sound your looking for.

The power tubes running full is IMO what gives you the harmonic overtones. A MV just doesn't sound the same.

It seems that a good route to early EVH Brown sound is:
12xxx Plexi variac'ed down -> attenuator -> slave power amp

So does anyone build such a beast with all that contained in one head cabinet? (how about it George?)
That would be superb.

Easier yet is 12xxx plexi variac'd down -> attenuator -> cabinet with green and /or blackbacks. Slaving works, but not a necessity.

[Tone Slinger]

The best attempts at what you just described are already out there. Due to what the size and weight of such an amp (as you described) would be, compromises must/have been met.

(1) there is no substitute for 'Marshall on 10'. No attenuator or MV is ever gonna be there. So there goes being able to use that sound in 99% of playing situations.

(2) After you have established (1), you have to decide on what you want to do, in regards to getting a cranked super lead type tone at acceptible volumes.
The 'feel' of a hot output section is somewhat retained with 'light' (no more than half) attenuation, whether from an exterior attenuator or ppimv. To set either of these too low obviously messes up that 'feel' to some degree. The bottom and high end is diminished. Some attenuators and PPIMV's work better than others in these lower settings.

The reamping thing messes up the feel and dynamic of the lone head imo. My exp. with running seperate preamps into poweramps has always been with that sort of 'mismatched' feel.

So, for the 'Lone head' sounding like a nice cranking plexi, you have the Bray mods or the Rockstah mods.

For getting a bit closer to the REAL thing in more of the 'feel' category, a good attenuator (Aracom, Faustine, Ultimate Attenuator,etc) along with a properly speced and set up Superlead is the ticket.

[efraser68]

Just be careful if you're dipping your toe in the early VH pool. If that's not a tone that you're wanting, there's lots of alternatives. How you want to use the rig (and you're living situation) will determine your choice as well. If you want to get early VH tone and starting from scratch it will be roughly: $1,500 - $2,200 for a 12 series type head; $600 - $1,000 for a 4x12 cab with the right speakers; $250 - $500 for a good attenuator. For me, it's one of the most rewarding setups I've played and the search is over. The type of amps you're talking about aren't sitting inside a music store so you may not be able to try something before you buy it. If you're ready to dive head first into the VH pool, you've come to the right place.

[rgorke]

Just be careful if you're dipping your toe in the early VH pool. If that's not a tone that you're wanting, there's lots of alternatives. How you want to use the rig (and you're living situation) will determine your choice as well. If you want to get early VH tone and starting from scratch it will be roughly: $1,500 - $2,200 for a 12 series type head; $600 - $1,000 for a 4x12 cab with the right speakers; $250 - $500 for a good attenuator. For me, it's one of the most rewarding setups I've played and the search is over. The type of amps you're talking about aren't sitting inside a music store so you may not be able to try something before you buy it. If you're ready to dive head first into the VH pool, you've come to the right place.

So, Mr. Fraser is also a Bay area player. You can go see his band and hear one of these amps. You can pretty much see the way an amp is built will get you field level seats at the game. (I know pepole will jump on me for this but most of the quality "looking" builds on this forum sound fantastic.) Now, to butcher the analogy even further...you have field level seats (tone) but do you like sitting right behind home plate or just above one of the dugouts? There are advantages and potential disadvantages to each...Cranked 12xxx into one cabinet is right behind home plate and using an attenuator gets you up the foul lines but there are benefits to being up the foul line (being able to stand in front of the amp, hearing issues, family neighbors, and you might have a better chance of getting a foul ball or an autograph).

So, if you want to hear one, go see YMI5150? and then you will "see" what we are talking about. We really have nothing to "sell" here except tone. And I bet that amp that went for $1200 and change sounded fantastic (unless something was wrong with it...but they can all be "fixed")

[tone?]

Well the only way I will know " how far I want to take this' is to listen to a rig made for this sound which I will at YMI5150's and see what I think

If I am so blown away and can't have it any other way then sure I dont mind spending the money for my hobby
I'm totally open to hearing and playing it all

I super appreciate all the direction and help as well!

[FL6]

I'm in the same boat tone?
I talked with Eric and Kevin and they were most informative, as well Eric has some good youtube clips of his rig at home.
Being on the other side of the continent everything will be mail order so it'll be quite the leap but it's one I'm willing to take, it's just a money issue for now.

The other thing is I ain't getting any younger so if I want to experience this tone in my hands I gotta go for it.
What's the worse case scenario? I suppose resell everything.

[tsma]

Ain't this the tone yer after?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsYBem8 ... jw&index=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(Go to 5:36 in George's video.)


I mean, he isn't even playing the "right" kind of guitar, and it sure sounds EVH to me (again, at 5:36 onward).

THAT's why everyone's saying "12,000 variac'd" ya know?


-bryan

[ampSnob]

If you were not picky you wouldn't be here now would you? This place is full of crusty cantankerousness that is unmatched by any other forum. Guys here buy lawns so they can tell you to get off of them.

Best thing I've read all day

[Tone Slinger]

A dimed super lead isnt for everyone, thats for sure. The sustain and tonal charector is obviously much different than the amps most of us have came up on. So, yeah, by ALL means, go and play someones plexi rig first. Its not a shame to come back around full circle and realize that you may actually like a 'newer' Marshall better, then again, you may end up with a stock 12xxx. Its the players choice.

[YMI5150?]

Howdy
Variac is icing on the cake. Not an absolute requirement if those of us that are way down in the rabbit hole can surface for a minute. Not a cheap quest but worth every penny.

I'll see if I can get some time for you to check it out. Warning though, its an insane rig and you will be tapping into savings if/when you experience it

[demonufo]

It's cool if you could try a 12000 series even on an attenuator. It's the sound your looking for.

The power tubes running full is IMO what gives you the harmonic overtones. A MV just doesn't sound the same.

It seems that a good route to early EVH Brown sound is:
12xxx Plexi variac'ed down -> attenuator -> slave power amp

So does anyone build such a beast with all that contained in one head cabinet? (how about it George?)
That would be superb.

Really not a good idea. Layout would be a nightmare, it would be very difficult to avoid the variac inducing an awful lot of hum into various parts of the amp. Spec'ing a PT to your chosen voltage shouldn't be too difficult though. And the usefulness of an amp that is permanently going through an attenuator and power amped back up is going to be pretty low for most people in the majority of real world situations. It's just not a marketable idea, but it doesn't change the fact that there really isn't enough room in an amp head to employ all this without massive compromises.

[ampSnob]

So does anyone build such a beast with all that contained in one head cabinet? (how about it George?)
That would be superb.

The problem with this as anyone who has ever tried it (like me) will tell you is that you just can't stop experimenting and finding a one size fits all solution to everything never happens. I did this exact thing, I have an amp with a variac built in (1 cm inch from the OT with zero buzz btw) with an attenuator built in, with every VH mod I could think of and throwing out everything that I didn't think mattered like 4 hole input and actual knobs for the treble middle bass. I just hard wired to '10' did everything else PTP off the sockets, mounted the whole thing in a small non back breaking ergonomic enclosure, saved a ton of space and wire mess and ended up making the whole thing really quiet portable tone-monster amp.

The problem then is, as soon as it's done I thought up 10 new things I wanted to try and some experiments with parts I never put in because I thought they were not important (like the routing possibilities you can do with 4 holes of input). (Hidden Tone secret for those paying attention: 2 64ks in parallel sound way more interesting than just hard wiring in one 32k). And by redesigning the whole thing I threw out what I thought was Marshall's outdated poor (or just cheap) legacy grounding arrangements issues which it turns out might be critical to the EVH sound. (EVH did complain about his Marshall's hiss) So in the end, this amp is great but it's not the end all be all greatest tone machine I could ever think of because it's limited by my re-design.

My conclusion from that experiment was: There are factors that might not be known now, or ever in the future completely understood, and to go too far off the path is potentially and most likely limiting yourself in some unknown way on this particular tone quest. Factors like, does rust on the laminations help the tone? How did Dagnal change the iron composition from 67 to 69 and what did that do to the sound? Does rotation and placement of the OT matter? Does the treatment of the chassis (zinc bath or whatever) affect anything especially since such heavy currents are flowing through parts of it? Why do old Marshalls that have blown up at some point (and fixed) seem to sound better than ones that haven't? (just my opinion) Really difficult to quanitfy and answer stuff. Scientifically, for now, the best thing to do trying to reverse engineer the 'mojo' is to replicate it as exactly as possible with the right parts, experiment, and see what factors affect each other. Stuff that seems unimportant might turn out to be everything.

I still plan to, when I 'figure it all out' go back and update that amp to make it perfect but in reality I don't think will ever happen as there's always something else to tweek, think about, play with, experiment and try and there's no way to plan ahead or engineer for that. Anyway, went on way too long, Sorry to rant.

[tone?]

So, went to the local GC where they had a Marshall 1987 reissue. used

i like going during the week because it is usually empty and it was.
so i cranked it.

yes no shit i dimmed it. lol

i went into the platinum room and all they had was a 2x12 orange cab 8ohms with v30s.
yes it was bright and brash.
the gain was pretty good and broke up pretty early. past 4-5 the volume didnt really rise.

the amp was in pretty bad shape though. ( what do you expect from GC?)
i jumpered the inputs but after awhile the low channel was cutting out.

I liked the tone a bit. where it was going. i am sure this wasnt the best representation of it.
it needed more compression and saturation. and of course a PPIMV! lol
it was loud but not as loud as a JCM800 50 watt.

i played it for about half a min at a time cranked without ear plugs and could take it.
not with a JCM800 i couldnt do that.

very curious to see what a real good setup will sound like.

the only other NMV amp i have ever heard cranked was a JTM HW clone and that was thicker and warmer by alot. much nicer

i remember M Soldano talking about Eds amp when he serviced it had the same experience, until he used a variac on it.


cheers

[stef]

Great post, ampSnob