Official Feedback thread for the RWTD ISO VS. YOUR CLIP.

[rgalpin]

I've been having a look at how Ed plays it in the 1978 RWTD clip.

From what I can make out it's maybe

rh downstroke, lh index bar on 4th,3rd,2nd string 5th fret

rh downstroke, lh move to index bar on 4th,3rd,2nd string 7th fret

Mutes seem to be a double mute of right and left hand together.

rh palm mute downstroke on 4th and 3rd strings of index bar, lh mute index bar on 4th,3rd,2nd string 7th fret

rh palm mute upstroke on 4th and 3rd strings of index bar, lh mute index bar on 4th,3rd,2nd string 7th fret

rh downstroke, lh index bar on 4th,3rd,2nd string 7th fret

lh hammer on 2nd and 3rd fingers

rh downstroke, lh up 2 frets

rh downstroke, lh lift 2nd and 3rd fingers resulting in an index bar on 4th,3rd,2nd string 9th fret

rh downstroke, lh 12th fret 6th string slide down

around a 100ms-150ms single slapback at a somewhat reduced level and maybe micing up close on the cone for the so called JBL clip and micing towards the edge of the cone and further away for the so called Celestion clip.
Small room acoustics like a tiled bathroom might help.
No need to bury it with too much reverb and just use no reverb for the raw tracks.
A compressor can mold the sustain and other things and Ed might have had a compressor in his EP-3 Echoplex.
There is source compression and sustain going on and not just studio gear compression, where the source compression and sustain is coming from could be a mixture of guitar, pickups, EP-3 maybe MXR Dyna-Comp, amp maybe Zener clipping, speakers, who knows.

Nice analysis leadguy! Lots of downstroke technique and a certain amount edward-magic-hands muting and control could account for the CLEAN attack in the ISO.

Also, interesting about the 100ms slap (added in POST at the board i would assume) that creates some of the air and depth.

I really want to hear ralle's clip in an A/B - i can't tell a thing about how close it may be until it's side by side with the iso. i KNOW it sounds great. that's NOT the question. the question is, how does it sound right next to the iso?

[leadguy]

Also, interesting about the 100ms slap (added in POST at the board i would assume) that creates some of the air and depth.

It's interesting what Ed does with delays (Echoplex) and muting and also with the phaser and flanger and muting like on Atomic Punk.

The slapback 100ms-150ms delay is from the Echoplex and the reverb is from the board for VH1 etc.

The Echoplex also has a repeat level, meaning that the repeats can be set at various volumes and usually Ed has it set pretty low, so with the 100ms-150ms single repeat and the pretty low repeat level, Ed gets the larger spacious sounding 3dish side of his tone but when he mutes like on RWTD the Echoplex repeat comes through in a distinct way and it's part of the RWTD riff especially the mutes and also the muted stuff in the verses with the volume knob turned down a bit.

The muted opening of ATBL can be done by setting the Echoplex delay to around 150ms and for 2 repeats instead of Ed's usual single repeat, so it becomes 1 repeat at 150ms and another repeat at 300ms which gives the ATBL opening it's distinctive ping-pong repeat sound.

The repeats are also in the Chorus where Ed palm mutes the Am chord.

Ed uses the Echoplex repeat(s) with rh palm and also lh fingerboard muting quite often and then when he doesn't mute, the Echoplex repeats at a lower volume than the main signal create a larger spacious sounding 3dish effect that is part of Ed's well known tone.

Ed is a sucker for time delay effects, like the Echoplex when he didn't have anything else to choose from and the harmonizer which he used later on and also the Phase and Flanger.

The way Ed uses muting and effects is a real art.

[rgorke]

I've been having a look at how Ed plays it in the 1978 RWTD clip.

From what I can make out it's maybe

rh downstroke, lh index bar on 4th,3rd,2nd string 5th fret

rh downstroke, lh move to index bar on 4th,3rd,2nd string 7th fret

Mutes seem to be a double mute of right and left hand together.

rh palm mute downstroke on 4th and 3rd strings of index bar, lh mute index bar on 4th,3rd,2nd string 7th fret

rh palm mute upstroke on 4th and 3rd strings of index bar, lh mute index bar on 4th,3rd,2nd string 7th fret

rh downstroke, lh index bar on 4th,3rd,2nd string 7th fret

lh hammer on 2nd and 3rd fingers

rh downstroke, lh up 2 frets

rh downstroke, lh lift 2nd and 3rd fingers resulting in an index bar on 4th,3rd,2nd string 9th fret

rh downstroke, lh 12th fret 6th string slide down

around a 100ms-150ms single slapback at a somewhat reduced level and maybe micing up close on the cone for the so called JBL clip and micing towards the edge of the cone and further away for the so called Celestion clip.
Small room acoustics like a tiled bathroom might help.
No need to bury it with too much reverb and just use no reverb for the raw tracks.
A compressor can mold the sustain and other things and Ed might have had a compressor in his EP-3 Echoplex.
There is source compression and sustain going on and not just studio gear compression, where the source compression and sustain is coming from could be a mixture of guitar, pickups, EP-3 maybe MXR Dyna-Comp, amp maybe Zener clipping, speakers, who knows.

Yeah, this is really helpful. It took me a couple of reads to really get what you were saying. Ed's ability to have varying degrees of muting is a huge part of his "tone" or "style" or both. He has talked about how to "control" his amp at such high volume. I had never played the riff by hammering the 8th and 9th fret. It adds a different feel to it.

If you watch the current videos of the song on Youtube, that (as LG described) is how he continues to play it.

[somethin'else]

Great direction and focus here, LG! 1st was mic'ing techniques and now onto playing technique. I think this IS the mastery of Ed, his ability to totally control the plexi beast with so many levels of subtle control and feel, including his use of, and control of, the effects too. This helps alot, thanks.

[cary chilton]

As far as the low-mid smear thing, I think we are looking at this from different viewpoints. I look at it from a guitarist standpoint. In other words, if I want to hear how an amps low-mids sound, the RWTD riff would be the last riff I would use to be a determining factor.

The Ego thing is just plain crazy. You have no idea who I am and what I am about. Sadly, I have known many many musicians over the years that let jealousy eat them up. I learned from the outset that you can be jealous and unhappy or you can be inspired by those that are more advanced and learn all you can from them. I have been inspired by many throughout my guitar playing career and that has always driven me to learn and continue to try and play things that I have never done. There is always someone out there that will be better, so I try to just enjoy my God given capabilities to the fullest. There are plenty of guys out there including some on this forum that can slay me and I am fully aware and have no problem with that. I'm just a dude who is in his mid 40's who loves to play. Sometimes I play at a high level and other times I feel I can't play at all. One thing I have never done is be boastful or braggardly. That just ain't me. I can tell you this, if there is anything lacking in any of my clips, it has everything to do with me and not my amp!

I wasn't bullshitting you about the lo mid smear that many amps have. I hear it instantly. Your amp sounds great as I have said many times, but I also hear that aspect. I can't build amps or mod them. All I know is that many amps, Marshall or not (many on the not side of things) once they set up for more saturation (gain some say, but it's incorrect) that lo mid smear comes in.

Ego thing... hmm.. ok then fair enough. It's Cary BTW not Gary, but the chill-tone is cool enough. I have a friend, who worked for Uli (Roth) for many years, wrote me a rock instrumental and named it : Chill-town.





Leadguy, your absolutely right regarding the downstrokes. I mentioned this before, too. I realized about a year ago or a bit less that and it was a revelation for me about Ed's style. Once downstrokes are used a maximum amount possible, even in solos (economy picking) the snap, the viciousness bite are automatically there. Also, the pause for swing feel is there, too. Even the drunken sailor thing to a degree. Meanstreet's main verse riff sounds a lot better using as many downstrokes as possible. Soon as you alternate pick it perfectly, it falls apart.... I struggled with this for YEARS man! I grew in shredderville where everyone just followed the doctrine of alt picking with never playing a double up or downstroke.... what bullshit......that alone fucking prevented me from really diggin in on a groove.. .. Also, percussive pick attacks sound different as do half palm muted notes with a downstroke.


Here is my latest gold: try controlling the strings, string noise and partial muting with just your slanted pick. That will be a revelation for many. Opens the tone RIGHT UP, gets you loose on the positioning of your picking hand, mostly floating above the strings and it offers much more tonal control, shorter notes (more stacatto) and also brings in the intangible factor of not..... artificial pick harmonics, but something related... sounds like you have a MORE saturation and compression than you do (still all in the hands and you still gotta work hard).

[dazzlindino]

I've been having a look at how Ed plays it in the 1978 RWTD clip.

From what I can make out it's maybe

rh downstroke, lh index bar on 4th,3rd,2nd string 5th fret

rh downstroke, lh move to index bar on 4th,3rd,2nd string 7th fret

Mutes seem to be a double mute of right and left hand together.

rh palm mute downstroke on 4th and 3rd strings of index bar, lh mute index bar on 4th,3rd,2nd string 7th fret

rh palm mute upstroke on 4th and 3rd strings of index bar, lh mute index bar on 4th,3rd,2nd string 7th fret

rh downstroke, lh index bar on 4th,3rd,2nd string 7th fret

lh hammer on 2nd and 3rd fingers

rh downstroke, lh up 2 frets

rh downstroke, lh lift 2nd and 3rd fingers resulting in an index bar on 4th,3rd,2nd string 9th fret

rh downstroke, lh 12th fret 6th string slide down

around a 100ms-150ms single slapback at a somewhat reduced level and maybe micing up close on the cone for the so called JBL clip and micing towards the edge of the cone and further away for the so called Celestion clip.
Small room acoustics like a tiled bathroom might help.
No need to bury it with too much reverb and just use no reverb for the raw tracks.
A compressor can mold the sustain and other things and Ed might have had a compressor in his EP-3 Echoplex.
There is source compression and sustain going on and not just studio gear compression, where the source compression and sustain is coming from could be a mixture of guitar, pickups, EP-3 maybe MXR Dyna-Comp, amp maybe Zener clipping, speakers, who knows.

Leadguy, your absolutely right regarding the downstrokes. I mentioned this before, too. I realized about a year ago or a bit less that and it was a revelation for me about Ed's style. Once downstrokes are used a maximum amount possible, even in solos (economy picking) the snap, the viciousness bite are automatically there. Also, the pause for swing feel is there, too. Even the drunken sailor thing to a degree. Meanstreet's main verse riff sounds a lot better using as many downstrokes as possible. Soon as you alternate pick it perfectly, it falls apart.... I struggled with this for YEARS man! I grew in shredderville where everyone just followed the doctrine of alt picking with never playing a double up or downstroke.... what bullshit......that alone fucking prevented me from really diggin in on a groove.. .. Also, percussive pick attacks sound different as do half palm muted notes with a downstroke.


Here is my latest gold: try controlling the strings, string noise and partial muting with just your slanted pick. That will be a revelation for many. Opens the tone RIGHT UP, gets you loose on the positioning of your picking hand, mostly floating above the strings and it offers much more tonal control, shorter notes (more stacatto) and also brings in the intangible factor of not..... artificial pick harmonics, but something related... sounds like you have a MORE saturation and compression than you do (still all in the hands and you still gotta work hard).

Will have to try this info out...not sure how I play those bits.....without a guitar in hand.....
I think it is doubful that I am playing any VH with downstrokes as the emphasis tho....
Getting ready to do my rwtd clip.....hopefully this info gets me a step closer.....

[efraser68]

Someone should post a YT clip of how to get the left hand slide/pick scrape done properly. Do both hands move together downward towards headstock...does the left hand start at the nut and the right hand pick scrape by the pickups.

[garbeaj]

Just to be clear...Strat78 is back to the Super 70s for his Destroyers...

Looks like we got quotes mixed up somehow...the above quote is mine:)

[somethin'else]

Someone should post a YT clip of how to get the left hand slide/pick scrape done properly. Do both hands move together downward towards headstock...does the left hand start at the nut and the right hand pick scrape by the pickups.

That'd be a great tutorial. It's definitely an Ed-ism, that pick scrape with the note slide combined = baddass. He started doin' it on the higher strings later too to make more craziness. This 't-mark' of his (I know other players pick scrape, but not like Eddie) got more and more refined by FW & DD, wow, and by DD it sounds like a gun goin' off.

I start up around the bridge pup, maybe a little forward of the bridge pup, depending on 'which tone' of the scrape you wanna start with.
As I start the scraping, my left hand is floating up the low E string, muting the string on the way up to hear just scraping and no notes sliding up. It's almost ridiculous to think about, consciously muting on the ascent, because it's really like you're just "coming up to meet the pick". But trying to break it down here...
Then the pick scrape and the swooping left hand meet somewhere around the 15th-17th fret, WHILE the swooping left hand has ALREADY JUST made it's 'arc' and begins to descend back down south towards the nut.
I 'think' something happens in that area, for a couple/few frets, where the downward swooping left hand then lays on and makes the notes slide, and the scraping joins the notes TOGETHER for a few frets.
I 'think' this is where that magical, effortless, wicked sound comes from, the joining of the two on the top of the 'arc' and on the way down.
Think snowboarding, hoppin' a rock, catching a bit of air and speed, then landing it!

That's my stab at it. ymmv

edit2: on second thought, maybe there are notes heading up and down. There are way lotta' options to get the sound: notes muted, notes sounding, where the scrape starts/ends. And Ed does each one colorfully different anyway, like a good live animal
I just know it's both hands coming from opposite ends, to meet fairly high up, then ride down together for a bit, with the left hand finishing it.
The left hand swooping the entire motion really gives it that slingblade / gun-flying-out-the-holster sound (and energy).
I can't forget that it's not forced, but floating & effortless, for him.

[garbeaj]

Someone should post a YT clip of how to get the left hand slide/pick scrape done properly. Do both hands move together downward towards headstock...does the left hand start at the nut and the right hand pick scrape by the pickups.

If you are referring to the power slide in the main riff, I don't hear a pick slide in there at all. I just hear a regular power slide. I used to think there was a short pick slide before the power slide, but now I don't hear any pick slide.

Lately I have been trying to pick both the E and the A strings somwhere around the 15th fret (accenting the E string) and slide both strings up to the 17th fret and then slide down both strings from the 17th position. I try to let the chords in the main riff ring out as long as possible and I try to make the slide last as long as possible before I get back into position to play the C chord at the 5th fret.

I try to fret the A string while I am sliding on the E, but I try to accent the low E. Everything else is just noise from the D string. This way I'm sliding on both strings, but accenting the E string only (if that makes any sense)...That's how I'm trying it lately anyway...

[Good Guest]

I'd like to hear what GG (pip pip please) or whomever on a post production with EQ & some wet added.

Seems to be a key factor ..the edge ..the attack... . Some are noticing varying degrees of what I call glassyness in the attack on some clips and then this pip pip thing on yours..Like there is no attack ...no edge just this invisible attack..for lack of better words a pippy zero aggressiveness attack...a compressor might help...maybe the ep3 thinga -ma -jig...or maybe a harder guitar pick. Great clips but the attack is pippy sounding.

Here I'll post a spectrum showing where I figure the problem may be...the attack frequencies usually hang out at the 1.5 khz -2khz frequencies ..,,the presence @ 2 khz so I'm thinking a feedback circuit tweak in Jimi James amp might have him nailing it....JJ in black EVH in green ..notice the big dip at the 1.5 khz mark in JJ's and the actual boost in EVH at that frequency....that dip is robbing the edge away..a big boost there would have that clip singing...could be an attenuater robbing it too ..they can wreck havoc at those very frequencies.

JJvsReal2.jpg (91.67 KiB) Viewed 2240 times

[Thorny]

GG,
So maybe the attack noise that Rgalpin hears in my clip has to do with negative feedback. The NFB is around 100k on my clip. I wonder if changing it back to 27kish would get rid of that glassiness.

[Thorny]

Jimi ,
Your last clip sounds much better without the wet effects! You can really hear the character of the amp coming through. You're getting closer with each run at it!

[rgorke]

Leadguy, your absolutely right regarding the downstrokes. I mentioned this before, too. I realized about a year ago or a bit less that and it was a revelation for me about Ed's style. Once downstrokes are used a maximum amount possible, even in solos (economy picking) the snap, the viciousness bite are automatically there. Also, the pause for swing feel is there, too. Even the drunken sailor thing to a degree. Meanstreet's main verse riff sounds a lot better using as many downstrokes as possible. Soon as you alternate pick it perfectly, it falls apart.... I struggled with this for YEARS man! I grew in shredderville where everyone just followed the doctrine of alt picking with never playing a double up or downstroke.... what bullshit......that alone fucking prevented me from really diggin in on a groove.. .. Also, percussive pick attacks sound different as do half palm muted notes with a downstroke.


Here is my latest gold: try controlling the strings, string noise and partial muting with just your slanted pick. That will be a revelation for many. Opens the tone RIGHT UP, gets you loose on the positioning of your picking hand, mostly floating above the strings and it offers much more tonal control, shorter notes (more stacatto) and also brings in the intangible factor of not..... artificial pick harmonics, but something related... sounds like you have a MORE saturation and compression than you do (still all in the hands and you still gotta work hard).

Cary, do you have a picture or video of what you mean? I agree. Ed's varying degrees of muting and HOW he mutes is a key to his tone.

[Thorny]

Roger,
This may help.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWEeGqB7x1k[/youtube]