Using a Variac ?

Info for maintaining and tweaking your amp to perfection.

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1Way
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Post by 1Way » Sun Apr 03, 2005 4:56 pm

Dan,
I live in a house divided into three apartments. My neighbors are usually cool, but I am very conscientious of respecting our private lives, including not imposing/forcing the sounds we like on others. But the one neighbor occasionally plays some modern bass kickin heavy metal, which sounds pretty ill from my vantage point, and so it is usually not a very likeable situation, so I don't want to encourage him in the wrong direction. So basically, I'm in your shoes with thin walls.

I totally agree with the idea that lower volumes are not nearly as good sounding as higher volumes. You simply can not change the sonic facts of life. It just does not sound as good at quiet levels as it does when cranked up. I just want to get the best sound possible at bedroom levels. I will also be doing some acoustic room sound isolation so that I can have a little louder volume and yet keep it to myself!

Yes, I am a dirty player, clean is fine now and then, but cranked amp distortion and infinite sustain is where it's at.

I have a piece of crap SS amp. It's something I picked up at (gulp, looking around) ,,, hey now, rememeber, I am a proud owner of a jammingly cool Marshall JCM 800 amp! I picked up a SS bass guitar amp at Walmart, because it was cheap, probably had a more durable speaker than the guitar amp, and probably was able to provide more warmth and lows as well. I have a Digitech RP100, so that was where the distortion crunch was to come from. To my ears, this amp is pretty clean, it does not provide any noticeable distortion, the distortion pedal was mandatory for even modest distortion sounds.

If that does not work out so well, then I suppose I would end up getting either a small PA (monitor amp?), or another (better) SS guitar amp. I am open to suggestions as to what is better. I would use the amp's tone circuitry to become as transparent (linear) as possible. I assume that usually level or moderate settings should provide less sonic shaping/alteration.

I do not have a selection of speakers for low volume playing. (Chuckles) However I do have two loud high power speakers. The 6" and 8" speakers is part of a plan for the future. I have two PA unpowered monitor speaker cabs, and no PA amp, just the elcheapo SS bass amp. When I'm at my drummers place, we use his PA and we play loud.

You said
That other method I use with the THD Yellow Jackets and -12db attenuation works well to but thats still pretty loud.

What is that? If I remember correctly, I saw somewhere, where you can use something like an adapter that allows you do use lower rated power tubes so that you can saturate them, but produce lower volumes. Please explain.

As far as running my Marshall hard, you bring up an interesting point. When you use an amp nearly dimmed all the time, surely that will use up the power tubes much quicker than if you always played at less than half volume or so. And if you max out your amp too much, you stand the risk of burning up the power attenuator and the power or output transformers in your amp. So, here enters the idea of using these tools prudently.

How about this. As long as I keep things sufficiently cool like always use a dedicated positive ventilation fan, and use some moderation with the master volume, perhaps keep it around 7-8.5 or so, then perhaps doing so would yield better results than relying on passive cooling and maxed out settings. I also consider buying a greater rated attenuator (100 watt) so as to help protect that end of the setup as well.

Billy Batz
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Post by Billy Batz » Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:19 pm

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Last edited by Billy Batz on Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

1Way
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Post by 1Way » Wed Apr 06, 2005 11:30 pm

Dan,
You have really helped guide me in a path that I have not considered much before. Thanks much for the slaved SS amp for quiet cranked amp rig ideas. I have already shared this idea with another local musician and he thought it was an interesting idea too. MUCH cheaper than getting a boutique 10 watt amp that costs like 3-5k.

I caught your into the return jack of the effects loop option. You keep coming up with really good stuff, thanks!

Ya, I have a sweet all tube path Marshall JCM 800 single 12" combo. The JCM 800's started to introduce diode clipping with the 2205/2210 (50/100watt) models and their combo equivalents. Together with my Gibson SG Std, it's a ride to recon with! (Big Grin) (chuckles) Man, it has been pretty much a lifelong dream to have a really sweet electric guitar and tube amp setup. It's almost hard to believe that I finally have it! And what is so cool is that one of the first things that I learned was that the stock pickups on the SG are much cooler than I first assumed they were, because I was able to crank up the amp and get loud.

Even incidental sustain just cracks me up big time. I'm standing there getting a quick drink, and the amp starts taking off in tune to the whatever is going on in the room. Me and my buddy can play a bit loud sometimes. (chuckles) I like the both on position the best so far, second is the bridge only for a very high reving attack and extra cut.

Volume it down to about 2 works great for picking clean stuff like the intro to "Bringin on the Heartache" - DefLep. I'm really a beginner, so forgive my noviceness, but so far my favorite lead to perform is the one on Lady Strange from DefLep. It's a rather non-spectacular, somewhat structured one, but I love the dynamics of the lick while sliding into and out of the positions, and then wringing the guitar to squeeze out the two string vibratos. I really like two string stuff, and it's low and gutsy on the neck. Never sounded so good until I got my new setup.

Of course I will see if the SS bass amp is up to the task. It sounds really clean from my ears. But I can see myself ending up getting a monitor PA amp for just such a setup and other things too. Hey, where in the world is Weber from??? Seems to me he's not that far from where I'm out of. Wondering if they would let me try out one of their MASS units for a setup like we are talking about.

Just did a MapQuest, and it's 112 miles from my place! I think I will have to be giving them a call soon!

How do you like using those yellow jackets compared to the normal tubes?

Billy Batz
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Post by Billy Batz » Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:38 am

It inevitably adds the EL84 character to the amp. Which makes it more 'tubey' and a bit loose. With the stock JJs that came with the YJs it was really loose, trashy and just overdistorted. Myabe great for an AC30 but in my Marshall it was a huge compromise. I started using some NOS 6BQ5 (EL84 variant) which have a higher headroom, cleaner sound all together and make the YJs much better. But they allow me to get the output pretty low so I can get a decent home volume without heavy attenuation. Maybe -8-12db on a hotplate is enough.

If the poweramp you use in the slave setup sounds nice and clear to you then your all set.

1Way
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Post by 1Way » Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:34 pm

I hear that power attenuation up to about 12db is a decent limit where after this point the tone becomes noticeably degraded. But you're happy attenuating downward by 8 or 12db's, so I'm wondering how many db's do you or I start out with.

Typically speaking, how many db's does a 50watt Marshall JCM 800 have available?

How much (db) sound attenuation does a pair of yellow jackets provide if used in my amp?

I am looking for more distortion and so I might like the EL84 YJ's. I read somewhere that it takes a 50watt down to ~16watts. That should cut the volume to about ~2/3 or so, every bit counts, and would make the power attenuation bit easier/safer to do.

Billy Batz
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Post by Billy Batz » Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:50 pm

Its not that simple. A 50w amp isnt half as loud as a 100w. As a matter of fact the difference is very subtle. Its about -2db. Its less then 1 notch on a hotplate. I dont know the exact math but speaking from personal experience I can say it is true running say a 50w amp then a 15w amp through the same cab isnt gonna jump at you as being 1/3 as loud. After putting in the yellow jackets a cranked 50W Marshall would be about as loud as an average drummer. I do think the HP seems decent til around -12. It depends what amp and where Im playing but -12 is like the cutoff. It starts to really irk me at that point but -12 is just decent enough Ill accept it.

1Way
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Post by 1Way » Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:27 pm

Dan,
I don't know the math either, but it's like a factorial or something. I did not mean to insinuate anything similar to the idea that a 50watt amp is half as loud as a 100, I realize how that works. All else the same, a 10watt amp is half as loud as a 100watt.

My guess was that the YJ's would produce about 2/3 of the volume, not 1/3. That's about 33% quieter, not 66% quieter. I recently played a 20watt Vintage Series tube amp (Crate), and I was able to crank that amp to full volume (for a short test) without much trouble in a downtown music store. It was a small (perhaps less efficient) speaker and cab, but the reduction in overall volume was significant (easily noticeable) compared to my Marshall 50watt amp.

I imagine that the volume difference would be less noticeable when using the same speaker setup, because the same 20watt amp into my 12" speaker should sound louder than the little stock speaker for the 20watt amp.

I guess the power attenuator with line out is the first step in the process. I should try one out before making a purchase though... Called Weber of Weber MASS and left them a message about store hours and if I could test out one of their attenuators with my amp, hope to check them out soon.

Billy Batz
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Post by Billy Batz » Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:44 am

Oh I got you. Sorry. Yeah Id still go with the Mass. That things an all out tool thats essential for even working on amps. YJs arent crazy expensive anyway. Less then $100 when I bought mine. Thats cheap in the guitar world.

1Way
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Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:20 pm

Post by 1Way » Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:04 pm

Dan,
You are the man. I just talked to CJ at Weber, and the guy has not, that's "n" "o" "t", has "not" heard of your slaved SS amp setup for great low volume cranked amp sound. And he thought it was a very interesting idea, using the line out as you described. Who knows, maybe he's new there...

Since he liked the idea, I went on and told him about your refinement idea about trying to use a particularly clean "power amp" (plus the return effects loop option) and then into a guitar speaker cab, so as to not further color the tone and should allow for lower volumes while sounding pretty spry. I also told him that I'll also be experimenting with using smaller speakers to better match the low wattage/low volume setup which "might" also improve the low volume cranked amp sound with just the power attenuator straight to guitar speaker cab. Hmmmm.

Power Scaling is still a cool concept in my book, but so far the line out to a clean (SS) slave amp seems so right. Plus, like you say, the Yellow Jackets can also help further attenuate in a pretty natural way as well, and for a reasonable price (some sonic alteration should be expected, perhaps for the better?).

I feel like I've been "shown the light". "My work is cut out before me". "My future is so bright, I have to wear shades". "Rock and roll ain't no noise pollution". (And my personal favorite) "If the fat lady sings, it's all over". (LOL)

IT'S A FREAKING AWESOME DAY OUT THERE TODAY, WARM SPRING WEATHER AT IT'S BEST!!! Rock and Roll!!!

Billy Batz
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Post by Billy Batz » Fri Apr 08, 2005 8:08 pm

Im truly glad I could help but Id try it out before I got that excited :)
1Way wrote:Dan,
You are the man. I just talked to CJ at Weber, and the guy has not, that's "n" "o" "t", has "not" heard of your slaved SS amp setup for great low volume cranked amp sound. And he thought it was a very interesting idea, using the line out as you described. Who knows, maybe he's new there...
Thats pretty shocking that that guy doesnt know about slave setups like that. You can be sure Ted knows if you wanted to pick his brain about it. This idea has been discussed widely on the net. I assure you its nothing I can take even an ounce of credit for but I hope it works out for you.

1Way
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Post by 1Way » Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:35 pm

Dan,
Ok, some caution towards realistic expectations may be in order.

So acquiring the following does not necessarily ensure success for having great sounding low volume cranked amp setup.
  • A top notch power attenuator with a quality line out,
  • and having several options for using a clean slaved amp (experiment till you find one that works well)
  • and then pipe that into a smaller sized guitar speaker.
  • optionally use YJ's to decrease the scale of wattage/volume reduction
That seems to me to be a rather formidable game plan for getting some sweet cranked amp tone at bedroom volumes.

(Question) If it's harder than what one might assume, please explain why I should not be exited about these prospects.

I have an alternate approach that I don't even want to discuss as I far prefer tube over SS. But if need be, I could go with (several) smallish SS practice amps to achieve some lively feedback and sustain. And at a reasonable price too. I'm thinking of something like a Pignose coupled with a smallish Marshall amp.

BUT I DON'T WANT TO GO THERE.

I finally possess a great Marshall tube amp, and I can use a power attenuator during loud jam sessions anyways, so I want to go that route first and foremost. But if the clean slaved-amp setup is not as feasible as I'd like to think, then maybe the little practice amps would have to do... Of course there is always the most expensive option as a last resort, and that is Power Scaling. I am very poor, I need to spend the least amount possible.

Slaved amp for cranked tone
I've been searching this issue out for several months, and while maybe you know about others who have done this, I have heard next to nothing about it. And the little I have read about it, talked about it in general terms such that the idea never really stuck with me. If you really knew all the hours and hours that I have researched power scaling and isolation cabs and low wattage amps and amp simulators and such, you would better understand why I am happy to tip my hat to you for leading me in this direction.

You do not have the needs that I do for great bedroom cranked amp tone, so rest assured that I will follow through with a smaller guitar speaker and cab, I will end up with a great clean slaved amp even if it takes going through several options, and I'm willing to experiment with the YJ's as well if necessary. And like you said, others have went this slaved amp route before with what I assume would be "good" results. So, although you may not deserve credit for creating the idea, in my world of learning, it was you who single handedly helped me understand what a slaved amp setup really means and that it might be better than other routes I was seriously considering.

myker
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Post by myker » Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:25 am

BLABBER BLABBER BLABBER FFFFFFFTTTTHHHHHHHH

Billy Batz
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Post by Billy Batz » Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:44 am

1Way wrote: Slaved amp for cranked tone
I've been searching this issue out for several months, and while maybe you know about others who have done this, I have heard next to nothing about it. And the little I have read about it, talked about it in general terms such that the idea never really stuck with me. If you really knew all the hours and hours that I have researched power scaling and isolation cabs and low wattage amps and amp simulators and such, you would better understand why I am happy to tip my hat to you for leading me in this direction.
I dont doubt you did its just weird. Amptone.com has pages and pages on it. Legendarytones.com has a lot on it as well if you want to check those sites out and get their input. Its a niche thing no doubt.
1Way wrote:You do not have the needs that I do for great bedroom cranked amp tone, so rest assured that I will follow through with a smaller guitar speaker and cab, I will end up with a great clean slaved amp even if it takes going through several options, and I'm willing to experiment with the YJ's as well if necessary. And like you said, others have went this slaved amp route before with what I assume would be "good" results. So, although you may not deserve credit for creating the idea, in my world of learning, it was you who single handedly helped me understand what a slaved amp setup really means and that it might be better than other routes I was seriously considering.
Thanks :oops: You still dont know how much youll like it. I dont know of anyone whose done it right that didnt like it though. Everyone prefers the amp by itself but I doubt there will ever be a solution that doesnt have at least a tiny bit of compromise.

1Way
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Post by 1Way » Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:35 pm

Dan,
When I check out amptone dot com, I'm having problems finding info that is helpfully descriptive of using one tube amp to a line out into another clean amp setup. (Q-1) What is the best link(s) you might suggest. Or is it the kind of thing where you have to read like 20 ideas/articles to get to one good and clearly helpful one?

Legendary tones dot com is worse, I only found an article about Webber Mass and that was it, nothing about a clean slaved amp setup. (Q-2) Any suggestions for helpful articles there?

Billy Batz
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Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 8:49 pm

Post by Billy Batz » Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:30 am

1Way wrote:Dan,
When I check out amptone dot com, I'm having problems finding info that is helpfully descriptive of using one tube amp to a line out into another clean amp setup. (Q-1) What is the best link(s) you might suggest. Or is it the kind of thing where you have to read like 20 ideas/articles to get to one good and clearly helpful one?
Good pages to read in full on this subject:
http://www.amptone.com/g070.htm
http://www.amptone.com/g213.htm
http://www.amptone.com/eddievanhalenrig.htm

Actually when you just go to amptone.com go to the list under Selectable Wattage Amps and look for 3-Stage amps. Thats all the info you want to know on this subject.


Legendary tones dot com is worse, I only found an article about Webber Mass and that was it, nothing about a clean slaved amp setup. (Q-2) Any suggestions for helpful articles there?[/quote]

You have to read the older articles of which the talk of that setup is mentioned often. Heres an article about the EVH rig but he talks at length about whats known as a 3 stage amp rig:
http://legendarytones.com/brown_sound.htm

Thats mostly about EVHs rig but it has a lot to do with the 3 stage amp chain. He kind of started it.

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