Franky's P.A.F ?

Tone Slinger · Post by **Tone Slinger** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:45 pm

Hi guy's, I've been listening to alot of Van Halens 1st two albums lately, as well as some great boots that a fello forum member sent. I am distincly (in my mind at least) hearing a very single coil sorta sound going on with Ed's Franky. Like on the rhythm on "Bottoms Up", that pure twangy sorta clarity has a very single coil sorta thing going on. I also hear it on the '25 song demo' done in N.Y., by brotha Simmons. Ed apparently was only able to take his Franky and a couple pedals (sounds like an eq and phase 90 at least) He must have used a Gibson or similar guitar on some of it as well (maybe Ace's ?) Anyway's, I do recall reading an interview in '04 where one of the guy's in charge of the EVH arts Charvels mentioned that the origional pick up in franky was low output, and that essentially only one coil was working ! Maybe Ed did rewind it, and sorta fucked up, and, as a result only one coil worked ? I know that a single coil at around 6 or 7K has enough output to sound good distorted. What do you guy's think ?

Strat78 · Post by **Strat78** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:54 pm

This is why I'm so intrigued by idea of Lindy Fralins Unbucker! Listen to the solo in Atomic Punk or the tone in Light up the Sky. Even the tone in Eruption is odd: the wound D sting sounds like an unwound G sting (in the machine gun part)! The unbucker has the adjustable pole piece bobbin wired hot (9k?) and the other bobbin is wired from 1 to 3k. With this set up you get a bright single coil or P-90 tone with the fatter hum canceling of the "dummy bobbin". My buddy LypsLynch talked to a guy at Lindy's shop ( who measured the original VH PAF?) and said that Edwards "broken" PAF measured off the charts ("0") because of one coil being wound super hot and the other more like a normal PAF.

Thoughts?

JD · Post by JD » Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:54 pm

If one coil was "dead" the entire pickup would be dead standard wiring (series). Now it's possible he wired them in parallel to get a weaker humbucking sound (which is close sounding to a single coil), and it would in fact probably still work if one coil was "open" in parallel (but not grounded dead).

I'm still thinking it was a humbucker of some sort.

Tone Slinger · Post by **Tone Slinger** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:26 pm

Yeah, I think your right. It does (Ed's 1st and 2nd album era Franky)have that lower midrange push that only a humbucker has. But man, that must have been a very low output pick-up for it to give up that much treble nuance. See, I am well aware that a stock Fender trem bridge is very hard to beat as far as natural volume and sustain goes, thus, Ed's Dimarzio equiped Destroyer(24 3/4 scale, tunomatic bridge), probably to him, wouldnt have 'felt' like it had more output/sustain. Does this make sense ?Ed realized that everything was 'perfect' with his 1st version Franky, weak paf and all. Ed essentially knew he had a 'golden' instrument in that origional black and white incarnation of franky, yet he just couldnt help but let himself fuck it up. I now, more than ever, realize just how much tone a floyd rose takes out of a guitar, that once had a Fender bridge. A Fender Strat with all its pick up routings, is almost like a semi hollow body. It has natural acoustics. Eds Franky was routed this way. The natural resonance of this guitar design, along with that big, sustaining trem block, allows one to use a weak pick up, yet still have all the benifits of a high output pick up, cause the guitar and bridge are STARTING at a more toneful place than any other guitar recipe.

Stratabuse · Post by **Stratabuse** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:21 pm

Here's an excerpt from an interview Ed gave regarding his ,at the time, newly designed Music Man guitar. They asked him what was the starting point in the pickup design? His response" My broken old humbucking. I don't know if it was a Duncan or a PAF, but it's a pickup that I really like & everyone measured it & the readings were just crazy. What it boiled down to is that one of the windings was half fucked up & that's why I liked it. It should not have worked at all, according to everyone, but I said "Well listen, it's working & I like the way it sounds." So basically we copied a broken pickup."
It's interesting but if they did copy his old PAF for his Music Man guitar, they diffinetly got it wrong cuz I own one myself & that pickup in there is too hot & a mushy mess.

I put an EVH model '78 in my strat & that nails the early VH vibe much better

Eargasm · Post by **Eargasm** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:37 pm

Stratabuse wrote: I put an EVH model '78 in my strat & that nails the early VH vibe much better

+1!!! I haven't heard a p/u yet that can come as close. The story I read in GP mag, was that before recording the first album, Ed took his old Gibson PAF to Seymour and said "Wind it to these specs". Seymour did and then scribbled out a quick schematic on a piece of paper. That piece of paper was archived for years, and only recently did Seymour find it again, and subsequently offer the unauthorized version first as the "Evenly Voiced Harmonics" (EVH), and now as the "'78 Model" from his custom shop line.
It's an exact copy of the p/u Ed used in his strat on the first album, so I don't know why people that are wanting that tone, even bother with other p/u's...(?)

Tone Slinger · Post by **Tone Slinger** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:40 pm

Yeah, I wouldnt recomend going over around 9k for a humbucker, unless you have a floyd, then a hotter pick up wont hurt much. A Fender bridge will overload a hot pick up, and turn it to whoofy mush, cause it resonates and interacts with the guitar body so much more. I measured an old ibanez pick up from one of those Steve Vai lookin ones I used to have back around '90 or so (Shaped like a jem, but no monkey grip') It reads 8.74k. That should do pretty good. I remember replacing that bridge pick up with a Dimarzio Super 3. The stock pick up sounded better, but I still hated the guitar. I sold it but still have the origional bridge pick up.

cary chilton · Post by **cary chilton** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:25 am

Call Jim Wagner at WCR for a schooling on pickups.... Basically, what he stressed with me is NOT to be hung up on DC resistance. THat doesn't really matter since it is relative to the wire type and guage; as well as the method of winding.

For example my WCR single coils, NECK measured quite high like around 7.5K and the bridge was about 6.2K and the the bridge is much hotter.
I hope that helps.

I have the EVH 78' and it is the real copy to Ed's broken PAF from a 335 Gibson. I am sure it isn't close to perfect at all, but it is closer than any pickup made because Seymour is the only one ED ever trusted to take his FAV pup apart.

Question: How does the brass tremelo block add sustain? I don't understand the mechanics and the whys.
The brass block would be heavier, but how would it ever affect the string directly since it is installed on the back of guitars tremelo block. I understand of different material of guitar nuts can make a tonal and sustain change. Anyone, shed some light?

JD · Post by JD » Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:08 pm

Listen, Ed is being vague like that because he doesn't want to reveal the pickup's specs, that is all. I would bet my left nut he knows *exactly* what it is. I mean, who would buy it if they knew what the original was and how to copy it exactly?

You guys who haven't tried the 42/43 AWG "hybrid" pickup sould really give it a try, you might be very surprised

Strat78 · Post by **Strat78** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:49 pm

Speaking of bridges. Again, could that first album strat tone be this Mighty Mite bridge with the PAF? There it is as plain as day on the first album cover.

Guitarjb · Post by **Guitarjb** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:57 pm

FWIW:

I checked the resistance on the pickup rom one of the EVH Charvel guitars that came out a few years ago and it read in the 14+ range (I don't remember the exact reading).

When played through my '72 50-watt Marshall, that guitar totally nailed the sound and vibe of the early VH records.

Joe

cary chilton · Post by **cary chilton** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:12 pm

Strat 78 I listened to some more of your clips, nice playing. Were all of the PODXT clips?

Crunchboy · Post by **Crunchboy** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:23 pm

Who knows the "real" story of the Duncan Custom Custom pickup? Supposedly, Ed had something to do with this one as well. To me, it's a much better choice in a stock Super Lead. It's just an Alnico2 PAF wound extra hot.

MARCO · Post by **MARCO** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:26 pm

The pickup that was used for most of the early records was an Alnico-II assymetric wound PAF, somewhere between 8.7-9k.......that is what was confirmed. As far as any new production pickups, the Seymour Duncan EVH 78 and the High Order Alnico-II are about as close as you are going to get.

JD · Post by JD » Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:16 pm

Crunchboy wrote:Who knows the "real" story of the Duncan Custom Custom pickup? Supposedly, Ed had something to do with this one as well. To me, it's a much better choice in a stock Super Lead. It's just an Alnico2 PAF wound extra hot.

Actually not quite. It's a humbucker wound to the PAF equivalent output with thinner wire, hence the higher resistance reading.