Precision Dialing For Accurate EVH Tone

Bainzy · Post by **Bainzy** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:35 pm

I thought we all established why EVH used a variac. Along with the 6CA7's, it's mostly likely used to reduce stress on the amp from doing the '****** mod', the huge power resistor he stuck between pins 3 of the inner power tubes.

And he used 2 variacs, which is evident from pictures I've got from his rig. One to lower mains to 90v, and the other probably to keep the heater voltages at 6.3VAC.

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:18 pm

I have tried almost everything you guys have said. I used a filament tranny and variac'd my amp all the way down, I did the same variacing it up, I just plain variac'd it down to 90 (the SB the new amps to 100), etc..

I agree that if teh variac thing was for volume, it mustve been well beyond lowering to 90V. A lot lower. The Cerrum mod makes sense because it explains why he would use 6CA7s, a variac and a reamp system if any of that is accurate.

None of this stuff makes a difference. None of this stuff gives you vh. Guest 1 is waxing poetic about old cabs and tubes like its a fucking wine tasting. Dont you think Ed would scoff at you, pick up Ralle or Marks amp and sound liek VH2? I sure do. Of coarse youd prefer the old stuff that sounds much better, thats a given, but the idea that you can hear that their recordings are wrong because you can hear that they have new stuff. What a bunch of bs. That idea is just rediculous. Besides Mark is using an old 70s cab and speakers isnt he? This stuff just does not make that huge a difference. Sure to you it does when your playing it makes a world of difference and when you can really capture the essence of the tone in really good recording. But in fucking clips? Mic's dont lie? That is just the most fucking rediculous thing I hear people say. Mics dont just lie, they lie in so many different ways that decent studios have armies of mics for different purposes to get the right kind of 'lie'. To the rest of the world the phrasing is more audible in how you sound on record then the tubes.

Besides these guys know their not nailing it using masters. But they have to. That deosnt mean they cant get close using masters. Are you actually going to say guest that they arent close considering their recordings are made at extremely low levels? Where would they be if they turned up?

mightymike · Post by **mightymike** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:20 pm

I'm not saying EVH didn't use a Variac. What I'm saying is that you don't need it to get the tone.
Yeah it affected the tone a little, but the varica isn't the essense of the tone. It was used to lower volume during the club days. It did affect tone but it wasn't the essence of the tone.

It makes sense that your 50 watter doesn't get ED Tone even with a variac. Well I get it without it. That shows how much the Variac is needed.
You wanna call that guessing. Fine. I'm not the one with the problem getting the tone.

And lowering the volume -6db can make a difference at a gig
Build one of these Amps an you will see what I mean. You don't need a Variac to acheive the right Voltage.
The AMP is 99% is of the tone compared to the other crap.
You can get a striped guitar, and go run around in striped overalls till your head turns blue, but if you don't have the right amp, with the right circuit and parts, none of the other stuff is gonna matter.

The sound clips prove what I say, unless your saying that Ralle and Rockstah stuff don't sound right? I think their tone is closer to EVH than anyone else. With no Variac. Show me better if anyone else has it closer.
I'm all ears.

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:21 pm

Bainzy wrote:And he used 2 variacs, which is evident from pictures I've got from his rig. One to lower mains to 90v, and the other probably to keep the heater voltages at 6.3VAC.

908ssp wrote:Hey Good Guest when you say use a Variac as a attenuator are you saying in the amp out speaker line? I have never heard of that sounds awful risky.

Supposedly theres some way to use a variac to reduce the amps output like an attenuator. Ive heard people talk about it but I still dont get it. Thre was some evh quote that backed that up too.

Im all ears to hear the guests recordings as well. If he's figured it out surely he actually has an amp and can make a recording to prove that you can nail evh in a simple clip since Ralle and Mark werent close.

mightymike · Post by **mightymike** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:37 pm

Good Guest · Post by **Good Guest** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:42 pm

908ssp "Hey Good Guest when you say use a Variac as a attenuator are you saying in the amp out speaker line? I have never heard of that sounds awful risky."

I agree and something like that would have to be done by qualified people. When you think of it tho..a variac is an auto transformer (just a big multi tap transformer). A 15 amp 120vac wall outlet running into it can give you 240 vac at 6 amps and conversly 30 amps at 60vac..so the trick is can it soak up 100 watts at 16 ohms...a person would have to know all details of the variac to be sure. If it could ..what would the effect on speakers and tone?

If you look at an output tranny it's just soaking up 100watts of power at "X' impedance and putting out 100 watts at 16 ohms....50 watts at 32 ohms etc etc. The person who would know if it is at all possible would be "******" he is extremely knowledgeable when it comes to transformers and marshalls . Off hand I'd say it is extremely dangerous.

As far as the 2 variacs for B+ and heater voltage , I just can't see it as there are no seperate ac inputs to the heater windings. It's just not necessary to achieve a low B+ while saving your cathodes from stripping.I read on this forum about a transfomer with a half power switch..there you go...half power for the B+ but not for the heaters.

So the question remains What did he us the variacs for? It could be he didn't like the tonal change of differant house voltages and used it as a isolation regulator of some kind. That way he could be assured of getting the same tone all the time. Believe me some guitarists are extremely picky about stuff like that. Maybe with the ****** mod he had to lower or up the voltage to that specific part of the circuit.

Then there is the beefier transformer additions that are found in those brown faced amps he used for a while. Perhaps those transformers put out 90 vac variac specs for all we know. Who knows?

I think everyone everywhere is in agreement that ralles and rockstash's amps sound excellant and they just have to concentrate on outboard stuff like cabs , speakers , effects, guitar , pickups and the last thing "the infamous ****** mod" then they have virtually nailed it all.

I seen pics too where he had 2 variacs but at the same time he had 2 of everything else indicating a backup system should one fail. Even a pedal with multiple outputs marked 1 and another marked 2 and checking all the plugs you could see only one system was in operation ..so I would assume if he had 2 variacs he iether was running 2 marshalls or one was a spare (backup). Or he had both marshalls running and should a system fail , switch to the other.

The question still remains for me anyways...what was he useing them for? The most logical answer I can come up with that makes all the sense is a power soak..how I don't know..why - for the tone. Everyone knows all soaks have a specific tone ...maybe he really liked the tone.

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:49 pm

Good Guest wrote:908ssp "Hey Good Guest when you say use a Variac as a attenuator are you saying in the amp out speaker line? I have never heard of that sounds awful risky."

I agree and something like that would have to be done by qualified people. When you think of it tho..a variac is an auto transformer (just a big multi tap transformer). A 15 amp 120vac wall outlet running into it can give you 240 vac at 6 amps and conversly 30 amps at 60vac..so the trick is can it soak up 100 watts at 16 ohms...a person would have to know all details of the variac to be sure. If it could ..what would the effect on speakers and tone?

If you look at an output tranny it's just soaking up 100watts of power at "X' impedance and putting out 100 watts at 16 ohms....50 watts at 32 ohms etc etc. The person who would know if it is at all possible would be "******" he is extremely knowledgeable when it comes to transformers and marshalls . Off hand I'd say it is extremely dangerous.

Thats pretty much what Ive heard before too. Im sure cerrum would know

So the question remains What did he us the variacs for? It could be he didn't like the tonal change of differant house voltages and used it as a isolation regulator of some kind. That way he could be assured of getting the same tone all the time. Believe me some guitarists are extremely picky about stuff like that.

Eric Johnson anyone? He uses some kind of regulated power supply for his amps.

The question still remains for me anyways...what was he useing them for? The most logical answer I can come up with that makes all the sense is a power soak..how I don't know..why - for the tone. Everyone knows all soaks have a specific tone ...maybe he really liked the tone.

Its surprising noone EE minded hasnt tried to develop an EVH attenuator along these lines. Theres enough people who would buy it at any price that it would be worth it. At the very least it could verify if you can safely run a variac as a soak.

Good Guest · Post by **Good Guest** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:53 pm

To make matters even more complicated regarding 2 variacs...I was reading how placeing 2 variacs in parallel will allow more current (double) at the same voltage . Perhaps he had variac meltdown problems and running 2 in parallel solved the problem.

Of course I also read you have to use a balanceing inductor to pull of the parallel trick. I won't even go there , that's really jumping into ****** land.

erigm · Post by **erigm** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:19 pm

I think ****** probably explained it best at the Plexi Palace. It you do the resistor mod across the OT primaries you put alot more stress on the powertubes because they are fighting each other. The variac lowered helps to reduce this stress and keep the tubes lasting longer. A few guys have tried it and said, "yep ... there's the brown sound". I have tried it in a traynor ,but not a marshall, and it did brown the sound.

The other variac could've been used as an attenuator as ****** also suggested. As you turn the variac down the amp sees a higher and higher load impedance. At a point the amp starts to oscilate and sqeal. this is why ****** also suggested running a 16ohm resistor in parallel with the variac and speaker. Then as the load impedance from the variac rises it never goes above 16ohms.

It makes sense to me.

Good Guest · Post by **Good Guest** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:01 am

Well that makes all the sense in the world . So basically it doesn't matter what everyone is doing in there chase of the brown sound..they will never really get it till they do the ****** mod.. they will get close, but no cigar.

I can buy cerrems explanation because there is a certain resonance to eddy's tone that no one has yet attained. The use of a variac as an attenuater is intresting and as it is a transformer it has inductance, windings, etc. and would function as a reactive load like a weber but with it's own tonal characteristics. The 16 ohm safety resistor would retain the color of the sound going in and act as the resistive load.

The load box designers out there shouldn't have a problem designing a load box based on a variac at all.

The mismatched load impedance is also intresting ...I wonder if any experimentation has been done in deliberetly mismatching impedances to mimic the effect of a ****** mod? That may be the ticket for those scared of shorting there primaries and frying up there expensive transformers and tubes. Of course that could be a ticket to the poor house just experimenting. Someone out there who figures it out could make a lot of $$$$ before the cloners come.

jnewlyn · Post by **jnewlyn** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:54 am

Brilliant stuff gentlemen. I've been snooping through these threads for hours on end for days now and it just doesn't get old to me. I'm so looking forward to my first build yet a bit aprehensive by virtue of the fact that I know very little in comparison. I just don't know if that VHII/Fair Warning sound can be fully realized in the 50 watt configuration. I'm limited to the 50 watt because I'm building it into the small box JTM 45 RI head. Moreover, to complicate things worse, I'm limited to a 1x12 cab with only a G12H30 in it and will not use a master volume mod or attenuation. (and of course not blow the speaker out) Should be quite an undertaking for a first build. I fear I may fall considerably short. There's just something about those 4 EL 34's in the 100 watters that produce a little something more than I've ever heard any 50 watt be able to do but I can't really describe or explain it. Perhaps someone could.