Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

[vanhalen5150]

From what I'm understanding with the piano, looking at just a single string and playing the major scale straight up that, you then play the shape of the designated mode in the order it falls. This would be the mode for whichever key you started in. Lot of memorization in this. I think it takes time to really get it down. This ain't "Smoke on the water" like your neighbor showed you..."put your fingers here...then go heeeerre...now go up heeeere...then back to heeeere"

[rgorke]

I think that is the beauty of what Chapman describes. Just use what you know, major scale pattern and apply that to whatever mode you may want by shifting the starting point.

[vanhalen5150]

I think that is the beauty of what Chapman describes. Just use what you know, major scale pattern and apply that to whatever mode you may want by shifting the starting point.

I get what he's pointing out there but your just using a small fraction of the entire mode. As you continue to move forward or back from that you will still be mapping out the entire mode shape I think.

I'm coming to the conclusion that there is not real "correct" way to look at this. There are some absolutes as far as the shapes go but your still improvising in and out of these modes and combining them at times.

Time for some clips!!

[rgorke]

I think that is the beauty of what Chapman describes. Just use what you know, major scale pattern and apply that to whatever mode you may want by shifting the starting point.

I get what he's pointing out there but your just using a small fraction of the entire mode. As you continue to move forward or back from that you will still be mapping out the entire mode shape I think.

I'm coming to the conclusion that there is not real "correct" way to look at this. There are some absolutes as far as the shapes go but your still improvising in and out of these modes and combining them at times.

Time for some clips!!

Yeah, he only does one octave. Just start, where you want to start, keeping the shape and scale and you stay in the mode. RIght?

[JimiJames]

Your head will be hurting more once you see how easy you are going to get this stuff down , in a mathematical fashion.

"...Ugh, this makes my head hurt..BUT I DO see some recognizable stuff in there! ...I first want to understand what I'm doing in the box pentatonic and it's extensions..."

In Mark's examples, he uses a "drone note" to play against so that the ear familiarizes that mode's sound.
ALSO, Mark adds a simple two chord progression that offers depth to the mode being played/learned/studied.
Instead of playing against a so called "boring" drone note, he utilized the "diatonic chords" to play against.
In short, he just made one of the two chords "Home" for the progression.

For this (cheezy) example Pedal back & forth from the 2 and the 1
So, introducing to the listener what your 2 chord diatonic progression would be,
to lean heavily on the 2 chord (A minor/Dorian) and pedal off the 1 chord (G Major/Ionian) like this:

Code: Select all

I //// I //// I //// I //// I
________Amin_________I_GMaj_I

or pedal on the 3 chord but again, still leaning on the 2 chord.

Code: Select all

I //// I //// I //// I //// I
________Amin_________I_Bmin_I

NOW, Take a look at that 2nd mode. Just in that box alone, you can use the scale that derived from GMaj AND the familiar Pentatonic shape. (not to mention the arpeggios, but more on that later)
So now, I now can record and play back the progression to play over it. Getting a "feel" of how one mode (or this scale) sounds from the other six.
(Chromatic, Diminished, Augmented, Melodic & Harmonic minors, to come.... Oh yeah.... there's more ! )

TRY IT!

[vanhalen5150]

Here is a pretty good image of a 24 fret neck if anyone needs to put out some questions or ideas.

[rgorke]

Those neck graphs are very helpful...

So, if you have a backing track that is C minor...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWPgY_8O9ck" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (the video part of this says G major but it is C)

Since C minor is the relative minor of Eb, does that mean I can play Eb major over this? Or Eb lydian and/or mixolydian?

Sounds like it works but ?????

[mightymike]

Here's a working class way to skin this cat. The 5 major scale positions. Memorizing these 5 really helped me learn how to solo in any key. Learn the 5, and slide it, go diagonal from one to another, jump positions and know every note on the entire neck in any key instantly. The higlighted note is the root, but you can go from the 2 to 2 , or 4 to the 4.. Whatever mode you want, and it's really just that simple. Most learned the 1st posistion as a beginner so you're 20% there already.

http://www.discoverguitaronline.com/diagrams/1.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[JimiJames]

Great post there, man ! *high-five* on the numbers !
That diagram should help guitar players see how their fretboard all fits together; as well as separated.
Any tips or tricks ?

"...fraction of the entire mode. As you continue to move forward or back from that you will still be mapping out the entire mode shape I think.

I'm coming to the conclusion that there is not real "correct" way to look at this. There are some absolutes as far as the shapes go but your still improvising in and out of these modes and combining them at times.

[JimiJames]

"..BUT I DO see some recognizable stuff in there!.../... I first want to understand what I'm doing in the box pentatonic and it's extensions..."

haha ! aye man??? Take a look back at that custom Pentatonic diagram I previously posted.
Now check out mightymike's Ex. 2,3&5 ! Whatcha' see there, palaroo ?
(It's almost there in Ex.1. Although a minor, the difference would be that it is a minor7th b5)
That should make it easier to play with a little more expression, eh ? Getcha ta' be a virtuoso just yet !

That should be good for a couple a cold ones for mightymike there, no? what ?

[JimiJames]

Where should this Topic best reside on the forum ?
Should it be made a sticky?
Should it get relocated to Off Topic or Guitars ?
Whatever fair/best for our community.
Personally I like it here away from amp related.

[rgorke]

There was a thread a while back that has a lot of theory as it relates to EVH. There are great nuggets in there but also has a lot of IMHO, nonsense.

So, here is the thread if you want to read the whole thing:

http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=41322" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He uses the pentatonic box in ways most don't - partly due to how he was musically taught at a young age and IMHO his somewhat unorthodox pick grip.

<full disclosure: I am not a music teacher. If I make some mistakes here, you've been warned>

He likes the Mixolydian mode and the Dorian mode. Mixolydian is just a Major scale with a dominant 7 - so the hop from the 7th note to the octave above the root is a whole step rather than a half. Why? it may be that his ear likes it - but it's also easy to play - start anywhere on the Low E and play the 1st, 3rd and 5th frets, then do the same on the A string and D string. bam, there's ya Mixylidden. "Same-ness" is key here - the more patterns that walk the same way across all strings (end of Jump Solo, the beginning of Ice Cream Man solo, et al) the more he was apt to use them.

If you know the major scale, by moving it up and down the neck you can be in a different mode.
So if you play a G major scale over an A blues progression, you're going to be in A Dorian. look at the 2nd barrage of pulloffs in the beginning sequence of Eruption - see how those fit neatly over a major scale? that's a G major scale, but he's playing it over the implied A chord - ergo, Dorian. hat's Mixolydian, because you've got the Flatted G of the E scale.

I'll double check later this week when I have time. Modes are fun - there are basically seven patterns on guitar, and if you happen to like one pattern over the rest, just familiarize yourself with the pattern, then shift it depending on what feel you want to use.

So if you're vamping on a D9 chord, play an A-major scale.
if you're vamping on an A chord, play a G major scale
stuff like that. it's the same as how you take the pentatonic box that everybody plays at the 12 fret (minor pentatonic) and shift it down 4 frets and bang, you're playing country (major pentatonic).

Hey Twisty, great explanations and I think there are couple of things might need correcting (I too am not a music teacher).

- The part about doing 1st, 3rd, and 5th fret on low E, A, and D strings being Mixolydian might be true, but depends on the context of the chord it's being played over, yes? But as a "shape" it does have a flattened or dominant 7

"Similarly, if you play an E major scale over an A chord, that's Mixolydian, because you've got the Flatted G of the E scale.
"

- I believe playing a D maj scale over an A chord is Mixolydian:
A maj chord: A, C#, E, G# (i, iii, v, vii)
D maj scale: D, E, F#, G , A, B, C# (G here is the dom 7 of the A maj)

But and A maj scale over an E chord should be Mixolydian as well, maybe that's what you meant?

But someone may have to check my work too

I know this really isn't relevant to the OP, and I'm guessing Ed didn't construct his solos thinking in the context of modes. But the only way I've been able to understand modes is that are not different scales, just the major scale played on top of a chord that is diatonic to that major scale. For example, I wouldn't consider "B Phrygian" to be it's own scale or shape...but just a G maj scale over a B chord. You can start from the B if you like, but it's still a G maj scale.

And it's easier to see when you spell out the notes:

G maj (Ionian): G, A, B, C, D, E, F#
A (Dorian): A, B, C, D, E, F#, G
B (Phrygian): B, C, D, E, F#, G, A
C (Lydian): C, D, E, F#, G, A, B
D (Mixolydian): D, E, F#, G, A, B, C
E (Aeolian): E, F#, G, A, B, C, D
F# (Locrian): F#, G, A, B, C, D, E

[NY Chief]

Here's a working class way to skin this cat. The 5 major scale positions. Memorizing these 5 really helped me learn how to solo in any key. Learn the 5, and slide it, go diagonal from one to another, jump positions and know every note on the entire neck in any key instantly. The higlighted note is the root, but you can go from the 2 to 2 , or 4 to the 4.. Whatever mode you want, and it's really just that simple. Most learned the 1st posistion as a beginner so you're 20% there already.

http://www.discoverguitaronline.com/diagrams/1.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Coolio!! Been out on my bike for a few good days of R&R. Now back TO R&R!!!
Great post mv, that's the one I've been looking for.

And thanks for flaggin' the post, JJ!

[vanhalen5150]

Im missing somthing on those major box's. What do the numbers represent?

[mightymike]

R is the root note and 1st note of the scale. In this example G. Like the song Do Ray me...