Laney aor 50 8 knobber Bass?

[Jack Butler_x72x]

Can anybody give me some suggestions "mods" on what to do to improve the bass on one of these? The term ghetto bass has been used. I'm very capable and confident doing it myself. Any info is greatly appreciated!

Thanks!!

[Mr Fixit]

There are different versions of the AOR series. I’ll assume you have the 50W Head (as the Combo has 9 knobs) and that it is a series 1(as that is the one that most people find to have the excessive bass boost issue). If it doesn’t have series 2 written on the front panel then it is a series 1. I'm also assuming that you don't mean too much bass compression in the distorted sound for which there are other mods to make it tighter. I can also share these if you want.

The issue is that the tone boosts interact with the level of the master volume control and "borrow" some of the amps total volume when the master volume is set low. So with the bass boost on and the master volume between 0 and 2, the bass becomes very loud and dominates the other frequencies. This effect is reduced as the master is turned up but then the overall volume can get too high. As the boosts are part of the master volume circuit the normal tone controls don’t really control the boost levels directly.

Imagine playing a guitar with just a tone control and no volume control through a loud amplifier that has no controls. You want to turn down the volume but the guitar has no volume control so all you can do is turn down the tone control. The high frequencies are reduced but the lows are still loud.

Now imagine the same guitar with a combined tone and volume control. As you turn down the control the volume is reduced but so are the high frequencies leaving too much bass. So you turn up the control to get more highs but then the volume is increased and it all gets too loud again.

Music sounds better louder as the ear naturally hears more highs and lows. Loudness controls were developed on older hi-fi amps to give added bass/treble boost at low volumes. The combined effect of the master volume and tone boosts on the AOR amplifiers is a kind of loudness control.

The boosted levels of bass versus treble on the master volume can be controlled.

Solution 1

If you do not want to modify the amplifier you can use a volume pedal or an effects unit that has a volume control as an external “true” master volume in the effects loop of the amp. Then with the boosts on you can adjust the amps internal master volume to the overall volume/tonal balance you like – as it is increased from 2 to 5 the bass reduces and the treble increases. Above 5 the boosts cease to be effective.

If you don’t mind modifications then there are a couple of things you can try.

The tone boosts are passive but seem very powerful, particularly the one for bass on the series 1 as it has a sort of two stage bass boost.

Normally a master volume control has the low volume side connected directly to ground/earth. When the volume pot is turned down all frequencies are attenuated by the same amount.

However on the series 1 before connecting to ground the master volume low side connection instead passes though a 220nF capacitor (C16) which has a 22K resistor (R27) in parallel across it. When the boost is on this is just like a guitar tone control with the highs reduced.

There is also a second part to the bass boost circuit. From the high side of the master volume control there is a second bass boost connection going via a 33K resistor (R25) then through a 15nF capacitor (C15) to ground.

Laney reduced the amount of bass boost on the series 2 connecting the master volume low side directly to ground (and leaving out the 220nF capacitor/22K resistor) so they must have been aware of the issue.

Solution 2

You could try connecting a direct ground connection to the low side of the master volume control (and remove the existing wire going there – tape up the end safely). Or alternatively you could try a lower value resistor than 22K to reduce the boost.

Solution 3

If you don’t want to use an external volume pedal/control there is a second master volume control on the AOR50 (and AOR30) called “preamp 1 level” which could help control the overall volume when using the tone boosts. It is intended to control the volume boost heard only when the preamp 1 AOR channel distortion pull boost (or foot-switch) is engaged. So it is not active when the AOR boost is off. This control does not have the low volume side connected directly to ground/earth. In this case the low side first passes through an opto-coupler chip (VT2) which connects the ground to preamp 1 level control low side only if the AOR distortion boost is engaged.

To prevent the volume getting too loud overall I suggest wiring the preamp 1 level potentiometer permanently into the circuit by connecting the low end to ground directly. Since it actually comes after the amps master volume it now becomes the actual master volume control and lets you set the tone boost sound you want on the original M/V control at the volume you want using the preamp 1 level potentiometer. Remove the blue wire already there which goes to the opto-coupler switching i/c and tape it up safely.

This approach of having both master volumes on has the advantage of allowing a lot of bass at controllable volumes but does have the disadvantage that you lose the switchable master volume.

[joey]

Depends on what you are trying to get out of the thing, and what you mean by "Bass Help". First thing Both Series one, and Series two have rather large Cathode Bypass caps on the First stage. IIRC my series one had something ridiculous like 47uf, and looked like a cat threw up inside of it. the series two had much lower 2.2uf, but thats still kinda big IMHO, and makes these amps feel too mushy. I would recommend something between .33uf - 1uf for the first stage CK depending on taste of course, .68uf being the "safe" value

If you mean the bass boost function on the amp, its a very woofy boost IMHO, and a passive shelving type at that, in that it works by attenuating the Midband and Highband really while leaving the low frequency content at full gain. You can either adjust the frequency range it peaks and add more mid content, or you can remove it easily, and if you have no need for two MV's, you can remove one, and use the pot for the standard Semi-active resonance control you find in almost every amp these days.

[Jack Butler_x72x]

Thanks guys,

I'll be looking into these ideas over the weekend. The laney is a series 1 50 watt head. I'm looking to get the best sound possible out of this head. I plan on replacing the OT with a MM OT. I've had 3 amps with MM's and I'm a firm believer in them. But, I'd like to get rid of the mushiness, tighten up the low end, really try to make the amp as musical as possible. The ideas that you guys gave me is exactly what I'm looking for. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I'll let you know how things go.

Thanks a Million!!

[joey]

I wouldn't bother with the OT, or PT TBH. Those Ariels that they used are pretty good quality, and were the only thing I kept when I gutted mine. lowering that first CK from 47uf, to .68uf will tighten up the amp quite a bit. I would also recommend replacing the filtration if it hasn't been done with in the last 15yrs.

[Jack Butler_x72x]

Thanks joey,

I may just do that. Though I'm not getting any noise and I don't see any leaking. Pardon my newbness to tube amps, but you mention "ck" what is that and what reference designator? I bought the amp from ebay, it came with 6550's. I read alot of guys go with the KT77's over the el34's any preference? I put new groove tube 12ax7's in, it really came to life over the old ones that was in it. Thanks!

[joey]

CK= Cathode bypass capacitor, on the schematic is should be C1, and be marked 47uf. I had one of the older series 1 amps without the loop, just the line out, and my board had no silk screen legend, but it was a blue geller electrolytic on the bottom left of the board if the amps front is facing you. you will have to track down a cap that has the appropriate lead spacing, I cant remember whether it was 5mm, or 7.5mm, but mouser stocks alot of .68uf 50-63V film caps with those spacings.

It's always a good idea to replace the filtration after 15yrs or so. Those caps dry up, and may not even make themselves known that they are on their way out sometimes until it is too late. Never hurts. the filtration in the bias supply as well.

[Mr Fixit]

Hi Jack Butler_x72x

Thanks for the PM and the link to the mods - you said you would like to get a Metallica sound. Apologies I'm not an expert on that but I did a bit of reading and the main feature of this seems to be high gain distortion and a "scooped" middle tone. These are common Marshall mods and many would apply to the relevant part of the Laney. However, many of these mods are intended for lower gain classic Marshall amps and a different approach to the tone settings - you may be disappointed if they don't really achieve what you are looking for.

Probably the most relevant thing I can suggest is to look at the Marshall JCM800KK model. That uses a solid state booster in front of a JCM800 tube circuit as well as an inbuilt graphic equalizer style tone circuit which is used to get the more metal tones.

The 8 knob Laney AOR does have enough preamp gain and if you pull out the treble and bass boosts on the tone controls and leave the middle turned down and not boosted you should get a scooped sound at master volume settings between 2 and about 5. Any higher than that and the boosts become less effective. So overall it may be better for you to connect an external graphic equalizer into the effect loop as the tone will not change as you alter the Master Volume.

You have not really been that specific with the issue you are facing - is this at low or high volumes - what are the settings you have tried?

The other issues I can see is that you have the 50 Watt model - this has a classic British power amp which will distort earlier than a 100 Watt amp. So if you dial in some settings you like at low volumes they may not apply at higher volumes.

Sorry not much more I can add. Hope this is of some use.

[Jack Butler_x72x]

Thanks for getting back! I appreciate it. Well right now I'm replacing all the caps in the amp. It
just might be the fact that the caps are old and I'm just not hearing what I want to hear out of the amp.
The filter caps aren't even really holding much of a charge, so I figure I might as well go through the amp
and replace all the caps. I'm going to switch out C1 with a .68uf as joey suggested. Possibly
add the Lar/Mar mod to the amp as well. I guess using early Metallica wasn't a good example, but
basically I'd like to get a nice tight chunk while driving the low end with no mush or fizz on the high end.
Later on, I'd like to experiment with the amp with some of the mods I sent to you. Maybe add a switch,
to change the voicing of amp some. I'm going to be changing out the filter caps with the F&T's, but
do you have any suggestions with tone caps? I don't think I'll go the sozo route, being that they're geared
more towards that old vintage marshall sound. joey suggested going with wima, which I use on some
of the pedals I build. Any other info your willing to share is greatly appreciated!!

Thanks!

[Froumy]

Gutted mine. Someone on here ditched the OT, with good results. Gut, too, IIRC.

If your close to what you want, keep going. Mine was far too pleasant for my taste. Too tight and chunky. So, we're on different pages. I found that using just the power section(from a line in) was also too "pretty" for my taste. Very articulate and balanced,though. I want raunch. However, It might be a very good starting point for a Metallica type amp. IIRC, mine had an unused triode stage that could add possibilities.....

I ran a rack mount EQ through it for a while. Kept taking 2cnd seat-to a 2205, no less. Might get you in the "Ride the Lightning" ball park, though, and that's pretty cool. My beef-always too pretty(I want some gross), even when she became a slave/stereo amp. That's why I gutted her, and will remain my beef with that amp.

I need to add that it was always run with a 4X12 closed back. Took forever to learn they're not for me(the cab). G'luck sir. My taste indicates addressing the power amp. You're tree is likely different, but I can't help thinking you might add some joy, there. Right speakers/cab,too.

Good project amp. Keep going.

[Mr Fixit]

Hi Jack,

Sorry this is long.....

Is the issue you are facing at low or high volume? If it is only at high volume you can suspect the power amp and/or speakers. You may be running out of head room with 50W. If it is there even at low volumes then it is to do with the preamp. If your distortion level is OK at lower levels you may need to reduce it at higher volumes when the power amp distortion comes in.

The first Laney Pro Tube 6 knob amps had 3 12AX7 preamp tubes and were very similar to the Marshall JCM800.
The slightly later version still had 6 knobs but had 4 12AX7 preamp tubes. They were still essentially mid gain amps like a JCM800. One half of the additional tube was not used but there was an additional stage - half of a 12AX7 after the tone stack. This is said to based on the Lee Jackson mods that were done in the 80’s. This is discussed elsewhere on this forum:

Lee Jackson mod

http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php ... 047#p89606

The AOR series you have came after that and made use of the unused half of a 12AX7 as high gain drive boost before all the other preamp stages. This is much higher gain than a JCM 800.

Actually this AOR circuit the circuit is more similar to the Marshall JVM basic boost stages (if you remove all the fancy channel switching and midi etc). So you can try the mods suggested for those amps on the JVM forum:

http://jvmforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.ph ... 52&start=0

There is one other:

http://music-electronics-forum.com/t1845/

“I recommend to replace the 100K VR1 with a 1MEG and replace the 2 100K resistors with a single 470K.”
The easiest way to do that without taking resistors out of the board is to remove the 100K resistor in parallel with the first pot. Then disconnect the wire going to the high end of the pot and add a resistor in between that lead and the connection on the pot where the wire went before. One 100K stays on the PCB so you the extra resistance you want. As the resistance is increased you get a tighter, less compressed sound but you lose some gain. You might want to try a separate pot first though temporarily as the original has the additional push-pull switch for the channel switching.



The LAR MAR PPIMV mod you mention might not therefore give you what you want as this is to get more distortion from the phase inverter of lower gain amps. You might end up with an even more mushy distortion on a high gain preamp.

The general idea of voicing on high gain amps is to reduce the bass going in to prevent a loose compressed low end and to cut the very high frequencies on the way out to avoid fizzy distortion. I suspect that your issue is too much bass going in – please try the capacitor Joey mentioned first.

The controls on the 8 knob AOR’s are quite interactive so it can be quite tricky to dial in the exact sound you want. What are the settings you have tried? The preamp 1 volume is after the first gain stage and gives a brighter sound. The preamp 2 volume is after the second gain stage and gives a warmer sound.

Please try reducing the gain a settings – there is so much available on an AOR that at maximum settings it can be compressed (remember you have one more gain stage than an JCM800 going in).

These amps are great but really overlooked so they are cheap on eBay etc. I really don’t thing it is worthwhile spending a lot on Mercury Magnetics transformers, high quality capacitors etc. as you won’t get your money back and the stock transformers are fine IMO (Joey also thinks so). There are so many things to fine tune first to achieve the sound you want.

No offense but I don’t quite understand why anyone would prefer the diode clipping 2205 sound to the all tube sound of a Laney AOR. OK I’m more of a classic rock fan and I have a Marshall JMP 50W Master Volume amp as well as a Laney. If that is the sound you want for metal why not try solid state pedals in front of the amp with the AOR boost on the lower setting (that’s about 3 tube JCM800 territory where pedals are often used to boost).

This is what has been said about the 2205/2210 on this forum:

http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php ... 58#p341018

Re: Hey Joey Voltage 2210 help needed.
by jerrydyer » Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:01 pm
well it just blows chunks all together. Ive got two of them here and they both suck big time. I just want them to sound like 800's with more gain. These things are dumb. fizzy flabby bass, no sustain. I dont know who thought this was a good idea.


Re: Hey Joey Voltage 2210 help needed.
by joey » Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:25 pm
Second, I would play with that second stage with the 470K plate load/marshall's ghetto compressor. I would maybe try 100K plate load there, and an unbypassed 2.7K, instead of the diode/10K, and see if that is enough.

After that you can try to play around with the diode clipper right after. it is the same symetrical w005 array as whats in their 2100/4100/jmp etc...

[Froumy]

Hear you on the 2205. If my 2205 sounded better, I figured blowing up the AOR was a pretty good idea. My AOR was just too damn pretty. Not a growl to be had. I'll take my 45, 2203, or tweeds... Lotsa distortion that could work well for a metal type sound, though, but thats not for me. Using the power section only, prettied up everything, as well. Notes seemed too articulate, no bloom, complexity, or raunch. Sure it'll work for some, though. Of course, I never even bothered to tweak it, so there could definitely be some love in there.

Seems as though there are others that opted for the full gut, as well. Although, If I was just starting, I'd definitely go for the mods, first.

[Jack Butler_x72x]

Thanks for all the input guys, I really appreciate it. Yes, this will be my first amp that I start tweaking with. I picked me up the "guitar amp handbook" by Dave Hunter. I also bought Lee Jackson's " Ultimate bench warrior". I'll be getting all of Kevin O
'conners books as well. I've never heard of of the guy until Mike Fortin pointed me in that direction. Nice guy btw! As I mentioned before I'm recapping the amp. Still waiting for a couple more parts. I've read using Kt77's with this amp and I believe one of the modifications Mr Fixit previously mentioned, will bring out the growl in this amp. But, as soon as I do the cap job, install some new Power tubes. I'll let you know how it turns out. What are you guys thought's on tubes for this amp? I've got 6L6's in it now, but are pretty old.

Thanks!

[Mr Fixit]

There are different approaches to getting the "right" distorted sound and opinions vary. If you use EL34's the power amp will break up earlier and give more of the traditional British sound. Actually the distorted sound of the original classic British amps like Marshall Plexis came mainly from power amp distortion.

On the other hand if you fine tune the sound you want in the preamp stages then you might want to use other power tubes which have more clean headroom. That way the sound you dial in at lower volumes will change less as the overall volume increases. Then various American tubes could be considered.

You still haven't said what settings you have tried on the Laney and if this is mainly at high or low volume ?

[uiovbged332]

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