Tonal difference between Metro OT and Mercury OT

[kannibul]

I know tone is subjective, but in a general sense, what is the difference in sound between these two OT's?

Is one clearer than the other? Mids different, etc?

I'm trying to justify the cost


Thanks!

[gutpile]

George's Answer:
Heyboer vs Mercury Magnetics. What's the difference? And how should you choose?


Heyboer and Mercury Magnetics are transformer manufacturers. Each offers power, output and chokes for Marshalls and many other amplifiers. Actually, several versions of the parts found in classic amps over the years. Take the JTM 45 output transformer, for example. There were many different types found stock from at least two different suppliers. The Radio Spares output came in nearly a dozen different configurations alone.

Both companies have compiled specs from these parts first hand by tearing down blown examples for rewinding. Each part, material, wire, gauge and interleave is documented and recreated. MM and their absolute genius leader, Sergio have probably documented and recreated more of these classic transformers than most other companies combined. To call them transformer experts would be an understatement.

So, if everyone recreates these parts from complete teardowns, why are they all different?

Several reasons. For one, these parts varied enough that unless two companies recreated the exact same part, you would find (and hear) differences.
Secondly, documentation and part numbering often left much to be desired. It's hard to know that you are comparing recreations of the same part.
Thirdly, manufacturing process. Modern machines are limited in most cases to even numbers of alternating laminations and only four interleaved windings (without additional set up). Thus, being completely accurate is expensive and labor intensive. It's easy to see why a transformer with a hand assembled core and several interleaved winds costs several times what a typical machine made part costs.
Lastly, materials. Since these parts were originally made, steel and copper have changed. Modern materials are more precise and often higher quality. Today's M6 steel is more efficient than it's 35-year-old equivalent. Which changes the core characteristics. Great for cool running power transformers, but not so good for output transformer cores where you want them to saturate in a musical way.
Other modern materials such as plastic and Teflon have replaced paper and fish paper. Which affects tone.

Transformer manufactures have to consider these (and many other) factors when "recreating" classics. One approach is to use modern materials and compensate for their tonal affects. MM parts use modern materials, but Sergio compensates for core saturation and other technical details. Things beyond the scope of this. Heyboer, by comparison uses closest modern equivalents of classic materials. Heyboer will also build to any specs you supply. As in the case of my Dagnall C1998 clone output transformer.

For my Dagnall clone, I used two examples of this output. One from Nov/Dec '67, a very early example. And a second from mid '69.
Not being a transformer designer or engineer, recreating this part took several trial and error prototypes and critical listening sessions. In the end, exact wind and interleaving combined with custom stamped and hand annealed steel, paper bobbin, self leads and many other details were required to make the recreation behave and sound accurate to the originals.

Getting back on topic re: Heyboer vs MM.
Which one sounds more like the originals? Both are very good, and miles beyond typical stock transformers. I would say they are different takes on the same theme, when comparing recreations of the same vintage part.
The MM parts tend to have a more open, extended high end to my ears. Very complex tone, notes and harmonics jump out from under your fingers. They sound very alive. I also find them to feel faster compared the Heyboer parts. Which tend to sound and feel blusier, for lack of a better term. Slightly slower and more like a transformer that has aged 35 years. Both parts share a musical, three dimensional characteristic.

Is it worth the extra cost for the MM? Absolutely. You're paying for hand assembly in many cases, tonal expertise and the piece of mind of knowing that these guys have seen every variation of classic iron.
Not to discount Heyboer, though. Their off the shelf parts are still a major upgrade over stock components.

How should I decide which is right for me? If there was an easy answer, this would have been a much shorter article. But there are some things I can mention to help point you in the right direction:

Do you want a JTM45 output? Or a Radio Spares deluxe replica, from early '65 with 6.6k primary, tag board and 16 only tap? If you need a very specific part, MM may be the best option. They have dozens of variations of most parts and can suggest the most accurate part for a specific amp or model.
If you want to build a mid 60's JTM 45 clone, either brand can get you there. With extremely good results.

Are you a builder/hobbyist who knows tranny specs and wants to experiment? If so, call Heyboer and give them your specs. They can build what you want at a fair price and you can tweak from there.

Do you just want the best EVH output transformer money can buy period? If so, get the O100JM-SL from MM and spend several hours a day working on your technique.

Do you have a classic amp with a blown part that you want to replace and not change the tone? The bad news is that nothing really sounds like a 35-year-old tranny. Especially one that has been on it's last leg for a while. Fortunately, either of these parts will get your amp sounding like it would have sounded earlier in it's life.
Once again, if you need a very specific part MM is more likely to have it documented and on the shelf.

Are you building a kit? In this case select whichever part appeals to you more. You can't go wrong with either brand. And you'll need to refine and upgrade other parts in the kit considerably before the transformers are the weakest link. At which point you'll have a truly world class amp.

I hope this helps and answers more questions than it raises. Let me close by saying that I am not a transformer designer or engineer. But I have good ears and I try to represent these companies and their products as accurately and sincerely as possible.
My opinions come from using these products personally and selling 100's of them over the years. Also from comparing them to originals, which is what I consider the benchmark for any recreation.
I encourage everyone to educate yourself and make informed choices. Your best source for info is to contact these companies directly. Both have excellent customer service and are happy to answer your questions.
Don't forget that there are many other transformer options available too. OEI, Marstran, Mojo, Weber ect.

george

[kannibul]

Thanks, but while that gives some indication...it kinda didn't help?

I'm thinking of building this amp, then later converting it to a JCM 800, then modifying it to bea firebreathing monster (potentiall)

I don't want it to sounds harsh, which reading that description kinda makes the MM OT seem like it could be over the Heyboer?

I dunno...

I want it to sound thick, yet clear. That "just right" kind of sound - lol...I guess I'm about as definitive on what I want as the article you posted - lol...

[Gibanez]

I have two 12xxx series specs with one of each OT's. The MM was
at one time prefered for the EVH tone which it gave the tone a bit
of grit where as the Dagnall clone IMO is warmer and thicker on
the lows. I like both OT's but my future builds will use the Dagnall
clone.

[NY Chief]

I have two 12xxx series specs with one of each OT's. The MM was
at one time prefered for the EVH tone which it gave the tone a bit
of grit where as the Dagnall clone IMO is warmer and thicker on
the lows. I like both OT's but my future builds will use the Dagnall
clone.

+1, the MM sounds a little too trebly / screechy for me. Maybe what a new plexi sounded like in '69 but not now.

[rockstah]

to my ears and hands the merc do sound alittle brighter... alittle but more important is how it responds. or how they respond.

merc is a faster tranny - this translate to its somewhat tighter. can u hear it? hmmm more like you can feel it when u play.

Georges dagnall is a slower tranny - but this adds up to a browner sound to my ears.

i could compare them to engine oil. you have 20 50 and u have 10 40 the merc being 10 40 and Georges dagnall being 20 50

if u are a vintage kind of guy and want to evoke van halen as well Georges tranny is a great choice. its my favorite. and I'm an evh freak.

if u are more along the lines of vintage but you want a hot rod the merc is a good choice. u will get evh out of it but u may not get some of the kewl clapton/ page... u will but not as much as u would out of georges tranny. the merc is more of a hotrod. leaner. georges is closer to a vintage tranny.

again the oil comparison one pours out alitle faster. sometimes you want it fast and sometimes u want it thick and syrupy.

everyone has differrent hands, ears and tonal needs.

the only way to really know which one u like is to try both but this is my experience trying both of them.

Mark

[kannibul]

to my ears and hands the merc do sound alittle brighter... alittle but more important is how it responds. or how they respond.

merc is a faster tranny - this translate to its somewhat tighter. can u hear it? hmmm more like you can feel it when u play.

Georges dagnall is a slower tranny - but this adds up to a browner sound to my ears.

i could compare them to engine oil. you have 20 50 and u have 10 40 the merc being 10 40 and Georges dagnall being 20 50

if u are a vintage kind of guy and want to evoke van halen as well Georges tranny is a great choice. its my favorite. and I'm an evh freak.

if u are more along the lines of vintage but you want a hot rod the merc is a good choice. u will get evh out of it but u may not get some of the kewl clapton/ page... u will but not as much as u would out of georges tranny. the merc is more of a hotrod. leaner. georges is closer to a vintage tranny.

again the oil comparison one pours out alitle faster. sometimes you want it fast and sometimes u want it thick and syrupy.

everyone has differrent hands, ears and tonal needs.

the only way to really know which one u like is to try both but this is my experience trying both of them.

Mark

In those clips, which do you have (just listened to Superlead Circuit (******))

Also, in terms of top-end response, would it be something that would be "tweaked" out on the presence control spectrum - or it something more substantial/broader?

What would be closer to what is in the 2203/early JCM800?

Also, if I leave it as a 1959SLP, at the very least I'll put in a PPIMV...


Am I making too big of a deal over it? LOL?

[rockstah]

to my ears and hands the merc do sound alittle brighter... alittle but more important is how it responds. or how they respond.

merc is a faster tranny - this translate to its somewhat tighter. can u hear it? hmmm more like you can feel it when u play.

Georges dagnall is a slower tranny - but this adds up to a browner sound to my ears.

i could compare them to engine oil. you have 20 50 and u have 10 40 the merc being 10 40 and Georges dagnall being 20 50

if u are a vintage kind of guy and want to evoke van halen as well Georges tranny is a great choice. its my favorite. and I'm an evh freak.

if u are more along the lines of vintage but you want a hot rod the merc is a good choice. u will get evh out of it but u may not get some of the kewl clapton/ page... u will but not as much as u would out of georges tranny. the merc is more of a hotrod. leaner. georges is closer to a vintage tranny.

again the oil comparison one pours out alitle faster. sometimes you want it fast and sometimes u want it thick and syrupy.

everyone has differrent hands, ears and tonal needs.

the only way to really know which one u like is to try both but this is my experience trying both of them.

Mark

In those clips, which do you have (just listened to Superlead Circuit (******))

Also, in terms of top-end response, would it be something that would be "tweaked" out on the presence control spectrum - or it something more substantial/broader?

What would be closer to what is in the 2203/early JCM800?

Also, if I leave it as a 1959SLP, at the very least I'll put in a PPIMV...


Am I making too big of a deal over it? LOL?

the clips with ****** in the title or ****** ( Chris ****** ) trannys.
yes it can be tweaked out. they both are great trannys.
u r not making too much out of it - i went as far as to try em all.

[NY Chief]

You're asking the wrong guy (Mark) if you think you're making too much out of it! Mark has been elbows deep in this shit since post #1!!! He will stop at NOTHING in his tone quest. Right, Mark!??!?

[Roe]

this is a very informative post

[VelvetGeorge]

I would add that they sound more alike, and like original Dagnalls, than they sound different from one another. I always tell people that they can't possibly go wrong with either OT. But there is a perceivable difference.

Rockstah's findings are spot IMO.


george

[kannibul]

I would add that they sound more alike, and like original Dagnalls, than they sound different from one another. I always tell people that they can't possibly go wrong with either OT. But there is a perceivable difference.

Rockstah's findings are spot IMO.


george

If this were a "JCM 800", which would be better suited?


Would you say the brand of caps would make a more noticable difference?

With the MM being "tighter", is the bottom end less, or is it just tighter?

Which has more clarity? Which one is "thicker"?

With Rockstah's comment of the MM being "leaner" - would that mean "thinner"?

Does one saturate more easily?

Would MM be more suited for a certain musical direction than the Metro/Heyboer?



Thanks!

Again, I'm trying to figure if the additional cost would be "worth it" - but at the same time, if at a later point, I don't want to wish I had gone the other way - if it's that noticable.

Say I get into modding this as a hot-rodded JCM 800, would one potentially be "muddy"?

That's my concern...when I bought this kit before, I got the 2" Drake clone, if I remember correctly (I had to drill the chassis!). If I could get a comparison based on that, I'll have a better idea...

[rockstah]

kan - what style music do u play? it seems like you would be perfectly happy with Georges Dagnall clone. again its my favorite and i have run both plexi and jcm 800 - (alal master volume ) specs through it.

i think the merc is more of one trick pony compared to Georges Dagnall. ( my opinion )

if the merc is the hotrod then Georges is the one thats more organic.

saturation - seems Georges will break up quicker to me. its alittle looser as far as feel. the merc is alittle stiffer.
metal players may prefer the merc. anyone else would probably like Georges Dagnall.

but then again would either of these players be unhappy with either of these trannys? hardly - they both are good transformers.

i could go on but at this point u may just have to try both.

Mark

[kannibul]

kan - what style music do u play? it seems like you would be perfectly happy with Georges Dagnall clone. again its my favorite and i have run both plexi and jcm 800 - (alal master volume ) specs through it.

i think the merc is more of one trick pony compared to Georges Dagnall. ( my opinion )

if the merc is the hotrod then Georges is the one thats more organic.

saturation - seems Georges will break up quicker to me. its alittle looser as far as feel. the merc is alittle stiffer.
metal players may prefer the merc. anyone else would probably like Georges Dagnall.

but then again would either of these players be unhappy with either of these trannys? hardly - they both are good transformers.

i could go on but at this point u may just have to try both.

Mark

I'm not a brut00lz metal head, but I do like some good metal...that said I'm more into playing 90's, 80's, and 70's hard rock, in that order. AIC, STP, Soundgarden, Tool...early Van Halen, on down to Tom Petty, Fleetwood...drawing blanks now - lol...

the more I'm reading, it sounds like George's OT is the way I should go. I just want to make sure and not feel like "man, I should have gotten the other" at some point in the future.


OK, so next question - Mallory 150's or Sozo? From what I've read on here Sozo gives it more of that "old plexi that's been sitting in the closet" sound, while Mallory are...???

Last one I built was with Mallory, and most of the amps I've built have been with Mallory's as well - I'm just not familiar with how Sozo compares.

Sozo clearer, or thicker...stuff like that...


Thanks to everyone on the help with the tranny's

[rockstah]

u wont be disappointed with Georges Dagnall.

Sozo instead of Mallory. enough said.

Mark