Metropoulos Forum

garbeaj wrote: I hate to come off sounding like a jerk in any way, but I do think there are some people that just need to be encouraged to practice and discouraged from making clips that are an embarassment to them and the listener. I thought that by making this thread it might give some of these guys a reality check on their playing, but it is hard to maintain that reality when people compliment such obviously bad playing on a stunningly regular basis.

Yep, it's like that production company for a TV show. The company is called "Aggressive Mediocrity".

In the case of the clips in question here, perhaps "Obsessive Mediocrity" is a more apt description.

Well this guy didn't come anywhere near mediocrity. He sounded like he'd been playing about two or three weeks.

demonufo wrote:this is coming from a guy in a punk band who can't play for shit - ME!

Don't be that hard on yourself - unless that CD of you and your band Molotov Sex Bomb etc was all 20 takes with Protools to tidy up at the end

My chief complaint about clips is that quite a lot of sound clips (not necessarily here on Metro) are very derivative pentatonic masturbation or at the other extreme EVH shredding with little musical interpretation. I do not record sound clips mainly due to lack of decent gear to do it properly - i-phone clips don't really count .

It is possible to convey the tones that an amp can provide with a basic level of chord and scale mastery but if people are particularly anally retentive about the resonance and duration of a particular pinched harmonic on Bar 32 of the second solo on track X, Y or Z then of course the skills need to be there.

The recent A-B clips posted by George were good examples of how to demonstate tonal differences IMO

Sadly my own ability is sadly on the Jimmy Page 'good/day bad day scale' with attendant fluffs so if I post anything later it will be heavily rehearsed and/or edited!

neikeel wrote:
My chief complaint about clips is that quite a lot of sound clips (not necessarily here on Metro) are very derivative pentatonic masturbation or at the other extreme EVH shredding with little musical interpretation.

It is possible to convey the tones that an amp can provide with a basic level of chord and scale mastery but if people are particularly anally retentive about the resonance and duration of a particular pinched harmonic on Bar 32 of the second solo on track X, Y or Z then of course the skills need to be there.

My whole point is that we are trying to be derivative because we are generally chasing a particular tone of a particular player and the more "derivative" and the less "musical interpretation" there is when it comes to clips that are trying to convey said tones, the more helpful it is for all concerned.

Any discussion of originality in these clips is really a moot point. Besides, the main point of why I posted this thread was to point out the clips that are totally lacking in effort or even "basic-basic" technique and how these people could benefit from less compliments on their clearly horrible playing. They could also benefit more from practicing and learning how to play the riff they are using to demonstrate their tone with to a degree that it displays technique that is somehwere above the level of embarrassment. Again, this helps everyone in the end. The people that post the clips that can't play are benefitting by actually learning how to play a piece that they clearly love so much that they want to cop the tone as exactly as they can. They really will have better results if their fingers can articulate what they are trying to play before they even plug in.

I suppose there are people who are amp builders and not players and they probably don't give a shit whether they can play or not. I just happen to think everyone benefits when everyone gives a shit.

Just another point...this thread will largely fall on deaf ears because the players that play so badly have no idea that we are talking about them. They'll just go on thinking they can play and someone else will give them another congratulatory "Atta boy..." on their latest embarrassing clip. Oh well...

I understand where this thread is coming from and am probably (well maybe not probably) one of the guys who should practice more. But, what are we trying to accomplish on this forum? I really enjoy playing, as good or bad as it is, and tinkering/fixing things.

So, who will be the arbiter of whose clips are 'worthy' of posting? I think someone earlier on said that a well drafted PM to the guy (presumably) might allow him (again, presumably) to make strides in his playing and amp building. I know of several specific instances where a forum member was an average, at best, guitar player, but a fantastic amp and guitar builder. Once the amp was recorded by another member who was a gigging musician, the amp showed its full potential.

Some of the best threads, in my opinion, in the EVH section have been about HOW Ed plays. It has helped me understand and, again IMO, play better.

All I am saying is that I believe we should be encouraging this type of hobby or activity. We all know that state of most of today's pop music is not of our liking. We should welcome more involvement, not have a talent contest.

rgorke wrote:I understand where this thread is coming from and am probably (well maybe not probably) one of the guys who should practice more. But, what are we trying to accomplish on this forum? I really enjoy playing, as good or bad as it is, and tinkering/fixing things.

So, who will be the arbiter of whose clips are 'worthy' of posting? I think someone earlier on said that a well drafted PM to the guy (presumably) might allow him (again, presumably) to make strides in his playing and amp building. I know of several specific instances where a forum member was an average, at best, guitar player, but a fantastic amp and guitar builder. Once the amp was recorded by another member who was a gigging musician, the amp showed its full potential.

Some of the best threads, in my opinion, in the EVH section have been about HOW Ed plays. It has helped me understand and, again IMO, play better.

All I am saying is that I believe we should be encouraging this type of hobby or activity. We all know that state of most of today's pop music is not of our liking. We should welcome more involvement, not have a talent contest.

I hear you, but I'm not talking about a "talent" contest. Speaking for myself, I have zero talent. I'm talking about "giving a shit". The basic concept of "You have to learn to play" which requires practice. The people that I'm calling out either don't know they suck because of the exaggerated and undue praise that they get or they just plain don't care that they suck. I'm just saying it benefits all of us when everyone cares enough to practice before they make clip. It is about caring enough to actually put forth the effort to learn how to play.

I don't think anybody's having a "bitch" here, but there comes a point when I guess it comes down to how serious you take it.
I guess some guys are in it for the "hi-fi snobbery" type ride (gotta get me those Slash/Eddie/Lynch/Page/Gibbons/Young/Kossoff toanz, to hell that I can't hear the difference), and obviously are in it for the wrong reasons, rather than actually appreciating a particular tonal/playing goal.

This is what gets me, and thats when a person tries to play COMPLETELY out of thier league. Certain guy's here got 'hooked' on certain tones that were pretty simple to play, like the intro to 'yrgm' or the lick in Creams 'crossroads' or certain other instances (riff before the solo in 'On Fire', etc). Even the palm muted Am intro riff in 'ATBL' (though exactness necessitates a ep-3 amongst other things). So, these people know when they get 'THAT' sound, and they strive for it. There are several amp builders who are like that.They understand the tone and feel, amp/guitar wise, as much as anyone, though they may never be able to play Malmsteens "Far Beyond The Sun".

What gets me are the guy's who have the $5000 Les Paul reissues, the Peavey Wolf, the Fender Wolf, The 5150 amp, Marshall 1959/1987 reissue thats been modded, etc. I might post a clip from someone on youtube who obviously has high $ gear, yet cant play at all. Even simple 'tone evoking' riffs, like I mentioned earlier, are WAY off, yet this cat tries to knock out level 4-7 type stuff(eruption, 'YRGM' solo, etc). The time, tone and feel are all wrong. So, a simple (toneful) riff played by a simple player, correctly, is alright by me. I just hate it when people try so hard to be something they are not (good musicians).

So in the end, not EVERYONE, regardless of the practice/effort, are gonna be good players. You have to FEEL time, not LEARN it. Musical talent is as much a gift, or attribute, as good looks, height or intelligence.You either have it or you dont.
"It is what it is, and it aint what it aint"

Tone Slinger and I are usually in agreement about virtually everything, but I don't believe in talent. I really think that hard work trumps any inborn "talent". Maybe that's another reason why I started this thread...I firmly believe that if somebody cares enough and works hard enough, they can make non-embarrassing clips.

I remember when me and Mark (rip bro) disagreed about that as well. He was of the belief that anybody who diligently practiced, could become whatever they wanted to, playing-wise. I maintained the stance of my last post on this topic. But hey, there is a 'win win' to disagreeing, in some respects.

Machiavelli concurs... No talent needed, just sheer tenacity?
I think it's 'all good' when you can turn others onto the globe of factors that can attribute to, and enhance, a better player.
Wholisticly speaking.
Not just mechanicals.
Not just feel the spirit move you.
Not just theory.
Not just copycattin'.
Not just the wood, wiring, beer brand or color socks
I appreciate the sentiment to 'let's all try to become better players'.
But this is like... 3 pages... On the semantical trappings of what may subjectively define "embarrassment" and how we can make a "known value" as to what may be allowed through? For review?
Sounds like back room government 'ta me.
Good thread idea, too much oversight.

rgorke wrote:I understand where this thread is coming from and am probably (well maybe not probably) one of the guys who should practice more. But, what are we trying to accomplish on this forum? I really enjoy playing, as good or bad as it is, and tinkering/fixing things.

So, who will be the arbiter of whose clips are 'worthy' of posting? I think someone earlier on said that a well drafted PM to the guy (presumably) might allow him (again, presumably) to make strides in his playing and amp building. I know of several specific instances where a forum member was an average, at best, guitar player, but a fantastic amp and guitar builder. Once the amp was recorded by another member who was a gigging musician, the amp showed its full potential.

Some of the best threads, in my opinion, in the EVH section have been about HOW Ed plays. It has helped me understand and, again IMO, play better.

All I am saying is that I believe we should be encouraging this type of hobby or activity. We all know that state of most of today's pop music is not of our liking. We should welcome more involvement, not have a talent contest.

I'm on the same page as you Roger. Personally, I find that most musicians know where they are as far their abilities, their musical vocabulary, etc. The end goal shouldn't be so you can post clips on an amp building sight for others to snipe at from the sidelines, it should be so that you can perhaps play in front of people in different types of musical settings and feel comfortable doing so. If someone calls out a chord progression, can you paint over the top of it with something that sounds musical in (or outside) of the key center. Learning to improv in different settings. That to me is much more rewarding than perfecting a VH lick. Perhaps that means that Garbeaj and I are somewhat on the same page too.

efraser68 wrote:

rgorke wrote:I understand where this thread is coming from and am probably (well maybe not probably) one of the guys who should practice more. But, what are we trying to accomplish on this forum? I really enjoy playing, as good or bad as it is, and tinkering/fixing things.

So, who will be the arbiter of whose clips are 'worthy' of posting? I think someone earlier on said that a well drafted PM to the guy (presumably) might allow him (again, presumably) to make strides in his playing and amp building. I know of several specific instances where a forum member was an average, at best, guitar player, but a fantastic amp and guitar builder. Once the amp was recorded by another member who was a gigging musician, the amp showed its full potential.

Some of the best threads, in my opinion, in the EVH section have been about HOW Ed plays. It has helped me understand and, again IMO, play better.

All I am saying is that I believe we should be encouraging this type of hobby or activity. We all know that state of most of today's pop music is not of our liking. We should welcome more involvement, not have a talent contest.

I'm on the same page as you Roger. Personally, I find that most musicians know where they are as far their abilities, their musical vocabulary, etc. The end goal shouldn't be so you can post clips on an amp building sight for others to snipe at from the sidelines, it should be so that you can perhaps play in front of people in different types of musical settings and feel comfortable doing so. If someone calls out a chord progression, can you paint over the top of it with something that sounds musical in (or outside) of the key center. Learning to improv in different settings. That to me is much more rewarding than perfecting a VH lick. Perhaps that means that Garbeaj and I are somewhat on the same page too.

I believe we are indeed on the same page I think that understanding music theory and improvisation are the greatest goal of any musician. It is what seperates fan boys from people that can make a living as a musician.

I think we may differ slightly in the sense that I think the people that are making clips that some may "snipe" about are really in need of some basic technique and practice. Again, I must stress I'm not talking about someone that makes mistakes. I'm talking about people that do not even have the technical facility to play, for example, the riff to "You Really Got Me" properly. There is a real reward for people who don't understand basic technique and practice and I hope this thread will inspire them to "learn how to learn" if you understand what I'm saying. I also hope they can learn to be their own worst critic and to learn to ignore the false praise of others.

somethin'else wrote:On the semantical trappings of what may subjectively define "embarrassment" and how we can make a "known value" as to what may be allowed through? For review?
Sounds like back room government 'ta me.
Good thread idea, too much oversight.

I'll clear up the semantics.

If a player can't bend a G on the 3rd fret of the low E string up to the target pitch of A and back down when you end the intro of "You Really Got Me", that player has serious issues that can only be explained by a lack of basic technique. It isn't a mistake or a result of off the cuff playing...when it is clear that the player has no idea where or how much they are bending a note like that, that player needs to do a minimum level of work to fix that. Sorry if I sound like a dick, but that's how I see it.