Hendrix Amp vs. EVH Amp

[Xplorer]

this is normal to think that.
well, wilkipedia isn't a reference for Hendrix gears and setup i think.
i tell you this because i only have strong reasons , by ears and videos to say the opposite, and also super strong reasons i can't about. i know it's weak but this is my reality.

[Lefty Lou]

Let me see, there are multiple book references within the Hendrix Wikipedia article and elsewhere, plus many other verbal and written references (if you research properly) that agree with each other what else do you guys need, Jimi Hendrix to appear on your doorstep and say I am the ghost of Christmas past? LOL Apparently verified documented information is meaningless here, it very much reminds me of Cleopatra Queen of Denial. ROFLMAO

[Lefty Lou]

if wilkipedia say so .... ha ha ha ha.
sure, this is what most people believe, and what some write, but it's not. Just following the ears will tell too.

I guess you need to sue some documented sources on the web that claim otherwise because you're outnumbered. Doesn't matter what I think. You noticed I termed, "what I think" as opposed to, "what is documented".

[Lefty Lou]

Celestion 101 (Supporter) was correct in, "The New Celestion G12H-75 Creamback" thread when he stated, "Wow, speculation is the name of the game here! haha", he hit the nail on the head with 100% accuracy.

[Lefty Lou]

Pete and Repeat!

[parkhead]

he ran the amp flat out is one of those things
yes its been said and repeated and printed...

I personally never run my amp up past 5-6 but if you asked people in the audience they would swear I run my amp flat out

did Hendrix Run his amps flat out? watch Monterey or any of the concert footage
he adjusts controls during the night ... but his big finale is to run his hand across the controls
diming the whole amp while show boating for the audience

Back when Hendrix was touring How big was the PA ? really 200 watts 2x 200 watts ?
2-3 100 watt marshalls was all they would use for guitar, they did not mic guitar amps
they had vocal Pa ... Later Mitch begged for PA support for the drums
so how much power did they really have ?

a well known Canadian touring artist has it in his rider that the venue sound system must be capable
of maintaining a constant 120db at the mixing board throughout the show
and he makes sure the audience gets that experience
I am willing to bet the levels on stage do not approach that outside of hot spots like in front of the amps
to do this requires multi thousands of watts of racked power amps or self powered pa boxes

No matter how loud anyone argues Hendrix or Cream were the technology did not exist to pump that many DB into a large room ... what did they have for power amps ?
At the time it must have been the loudest thing the audience had experienced so they were not lying
but some of these "documented facts" do need to be tempered with Logic

If Hendrix ran his amps on 10 all night why do we see him turn up at the end of the show ?

sure he blew up lots of gear, speakers were 25-30 watts tubes were mismatched, the screen voltages on those plexi marshalls were unstable, screenn resistors were added to marshalls in 72, he hammered the amps with the Fuzz face and held sustained feedback notes
all of these things drive the amp and speakers well beyond their intended duty cycle

Van Halen also Blew up the magic marshall many times but he also used it like a pre amp or fuzz box
driving into a dummy load ... this sounds different

Bottom line both players would sound like themselves with the same amp ...
and while there are all sorts of interviews If we believe them, there were hidden switches on the back of the guitar necks
and other trick technology .... why because the viewer could not believe the man could do it without them... not because they were there

personally
I just think that's the way the non guitarist interprets banging the back of the neck to induce feedback
once that crap is printed it takes on a life of its own

I have a buddy who does Autocross, timed parking lot racing... he always finishes top 10 out of 75 entrants
driving a tired stock Miata with 300k ... other guys bring amazing machines

everyone stops to watch him drive, he makes the car dance and pirouette like a ballerina and slides sideways into the stop box when most people wipe out and lose their time ... some people are just that focused and good


He says his car is stock and it is, on the other hand ask him about brake pads and he can tell you everything available and what combo stops his car the shortest distance ... ask him what the best "stock" shocks are and he will tell you
and the best alignment specs ...on his "stock" car
so while its not about the technology or trickery these guys are always light years ahead of their peers ...
even on basic stuff. there is a great story of Hendrix producing an Irish Band's album and stopping the session
and doing a setup on the guitarists strat ... the guy was amazed at how good the setup was
Hendrix knew that stuff too

Pete Traynor once told me about meeting Hendrix with Dan Armstrong... Pete said "behind the wild hype was an amazingly intelligent guy ... he knew more about gear and recording than any engineer I knew at the time, we were amazed "


to see this in action go to any amateur sporting event and ask the players who is the master even though he or she has crappy gear ... you will see a virtuoso in action

To sum up I have played a substantial Number of early Marshalls and while all of them were cool 99% fell short of the Hendrix and VH guitar tones ... I have also played with many lesser know old school amp mods and some of them bring these amps
much closer to those tone without losing the signature Marshall sounds at moderate settings

did Marshall actually ship ed's amp with a 330mfd bypass cap added to v2 on top of the .68 ? or did someone tweak the amp
long before he got it ... making his statements that the amp was stock both sincere and misleading at the same time

if its a mod ... done before Ed's ownership its opens up all sorts of new questions about the technical support early touring acts had and that IS where the fun begins

p

[Lefty Lou]

Parkhead, I've reiterated some of what you've said here already and it just goes to show as you say how "in the know" Jimi was about his equipment and that he wasn't only just a technically proficient guitar player. To be perfectly honest, Jimi no doubt varied his output level from ? to 10 for whatever the situation called for. It's think it's entirely fair (and safe) to say that towards the latter part of his (life/career) when he played larger venues he needed more power and headroom because, as we're to understand the P.A.'s of Jimi's day had not yet evolved to the highly efficient place that modern P.A.'s now hold. Look at "The Beatles" and their experiences with the same issues for example. These guys had to make their amps do the talking for them knowing that the P.A.'s wouldn't necessarily hold up to the power and levels that were needed. Hendrix evolved just like the Marshall amps he used, and as the venues got larger he had to compensate with his amps. The upgrade to 6550 tubes were but one aspect of this evolution. It's been said that even with the higher output that his 6550 equipped Marshalls put out, he was still turning them up to 10 on the volume!

It's also been said that he liked to run (3) Super Leads with (6) 4 x12" cabinets. We all know Jimi could have run numerous heads and cabs however, being the astute musician he was, he had probably determined that this quantity of heads and cabs maxed out were the perfect combination for what sounded best to his ears. The two times that I saw Randy Hansen in the 80's at a converted movie theatre in Norman Oklahoma he had (3) Marshall heads and (6) 4 x 12" cabinets

[Lefty Lou]

he ran the amp flat out is one of those things
yes its been said and repeated and printed...

I personally never run my amp up past 5-6 but if you asked people in the audience they would swear I run my amp flat out

did Hendrix Run his amps flat out? watch Monterey or any of the concert footage
he adjusts controls during the night ... but his big finale is to run his hand across the controls
diming the whole amp while show boating for the audience

Back when Hendrix was touring How big was the PA ? really 200 watts 2x 200 watts ?
2-3 100 watt marshalls was all they would use for guitar, they did not mic guitar amps
they had vocal Pa ... Later Mitch begged for PA support for the drums
so how much power did they really have ?

a well known Canadian touring artist has it in his rider that the venue sound system must be capable
of maintaining a constant 120db at the mixing board throughout the show
and he makes sure the audience gets that experience
I am willing to bet the levels on stage do not approach that outside of hot spots like in front of the amps
to do this requires multi thousands of watts of racked power amps or self powered pa boxes

No matter how loud anyone argues Hendrix or Cream were the technology did not exist to pump that many DB into a large room ... what did they have for power amps ?
At the time it must have been the loudest thing the audience had experienced so they were not lying
but some of these "documented facts" do need to be tempered with Logic

If Hendrix ran his amps on 10 all night why do we see him turn up at the end of the show ?

Because they were modded to 11, and he had them at 10. LOL Seriously though, how do we know that it wasn't just for show to give the impression that he was turning up to 10 when he was already at 10 ? Answer, we don't know as we'd be speculating and making conjecture. Magicians use misdirection, smoke, and mirrors, or as Hendrix would say "gimmicks". The numbers of documented repairs to Jimi's Marshall amps should be able to speak for themselves. You don't get the type of problems that he had by running your amps on 5-6 all day, and that's for sure.

sure he blew up lots of gear, speakers were 25-30 watts tubes were mismatched, the screen voltages on those plexi marshalls were unstable, screenn resistors were added to marshalls in 72, he hammered the amps with the Fuzz face and held sustained feedback notes
all of these things drive the amp and speakers well beyond their intended duty cycle

Jim Marshall made sure that Jimi's amp tech was trained and was competent as it was stated by Jim Marshall from his recollection that Jimi didn't have to call on Marshall again for any tech problems. Many of the issues you speak of again, because were talking about a man (Jimi) in the know about his equipment would have been circumvented. Inefficient speakers - more cabinets, Fuzz faces - increasing voltage handling for bypass caps on input tube for those large square waves, Added screen resistors. Hendrix, Hendrix's amp tech, and Roger Mayer were no slouches when it came to equipment modifications and stabilization of his amps. I wish I could find the lost Jimi article that stated near the end of Jimi's career and death, Jimi had (3) Marshall Super Lead heads built for him (all with 6550's) by Marshall that were to be delivered to a venue but were stolen so he had to make due. The reason was, that the EL34 tubes were not holding up in Jimi's amps at the levels being driven, and subsequently taking out OT's in the process. He wanted more clean more power more headroom, and with the 6550s he got precisely that.

Van Halen also Blew up the magic marshall many times but he also used it like a pre amp or fuzz box
driving into a dummy load ... this sounds different

Bottom line both players would sound like themselves with the same amp ...
and while there are all sorts of interviews If we believe them, there were hidden switches on the back of the guitar necks
and other trick technology .... why because the viewer could not believe the man could do it without them... not because they were there

personally
I just think that's the way the non guitarist interprets banging the back of the neck to induce feedback
once that crap is printed it takes on a life of its own

I have a buddy who does Autocross, timed parking lot racing... he always finishes top 10 out of 75 entrants
driving a tired stock Miata with 300k ... other guys bring amazing machines

everyone stops to watch him drive, he makes the car dance and pirouette like a ballerina and slides sideways into the stop box when most people wipe out and lose their time ... some people are just that focused and good


He says his car is stock and it is, on the other hand ask him about brake pads and he can tell you everything available and what combo stops his car the shortest distance ... ask him what the best "stock" shocks are and he will tell you
and the best alignment specs ...on his "stock" car
so while its not about the technology or trickery these guys are always light years ahead of their peers ...
even on basic stuff. there is a great story of Hendrix producing an Irish Band's album and stopping the session
and doing a setup on the guitarists strat ... the guy was amazed at how good the setup was
Hendrix knew that stuff too

Pete Traynor once told me about meeting Hendrix with Dan Armstrong... Pete said "behind the wild hype was an amazingly intelligent guy ... he knew more about gear and recording than any engineer I knew at the time, we were amazed "


to see this in action go to any amateur sporting event and ask the players who is the master even though he or she has crappy gear ... you will see a virtuoso in action

To sum up I have played a substantial Number of early Marshalls and while all of them were cool 99% fell short of the Hendrix and VH guitar tones ... I have also played with many lesser know old school amp mods and some of them bring these amps
much closer to those tone without losing the signature Marshall sounds at moderate settings

did Marshall actually ship ed's amp with a 330mfd bypass cap added to v2 on top of the .68 ? or did someone tweak the amp
long before he got it ... making his statements that the amp was stock both sincere and misleading at the same time

if its a mod ... done before Ed's ownership its opens up all sorts of new questions about the technical support early touring acts had and that IS where the fun begins

p

[parkhead]

I think a couple of key point emerge setting aside most speculation

Facts
Jimi went through a lot of Marshalls
Many of these amps were subject to field repairs
Roger Mayer and Jimi's technical support people were no slouches, building custom stuff and modifying Fuzz faces
for specific sounds
why wouldn't the amps be modded for reliability, or stability (6550's) with just as much enthusiasm as a fuzzface

While I would be 99.999% certain they would never add a gain stage or extra tube, there are multiple ways
to work within the stock layout circuit and tweak parts values and adjust gain or headroom
Marshall was doing this to evolve their stock amps during this period.

Considering this forum is populated by a group of people who are into building, and tweaking amps
I think it is fair to suggest that some of Jimi's sounds are from amps having unique combinations
of plexi circuits and parts ... as the EVH amp has been described

Given that there is a history of missing and stolen amps involved... and given that most high level touring bands of the late 60's were preyed upon by thieves ... I wouldn't be surprised to find out that EVH's 230volt early Marshall was someones "prepared" touring head that had gone missing ... the give away is the fact that it was only set up for 230 volts
so the seller was not playing or possibly even able to turn it on

All of which brings the discussion around to the reasons why I read every detail of the EVH setup even though I am more of a super bass player.

Both players shared a warm Huge Marshall tone that prints to tape very well... I think the trails of breadcrumbs converge
at the same point

whatever you want to call them they were
Prototype heads
Transitional builds
Prepared touring heads for large venues
highly tweaked amps using the "mod" technology of the period

Though the sounds are different I believe there is Gold to be found in some of these early amp prep techniques

FWIW I always use multiple amps (two) and select them separately based on A: distortion Quality when run hard B: headroom & Bass response when run part way up ... run the two together and you have big bottom end & great overdrive
this is still the #1 touring technique most people do not understand ... multiple amps are used for frequency coverage as much as volume production ... & thats why you see some showman heads at Monterey


P

[Lefty Lou]

I think we all tend to neglect the fact that touring musicians that (fix/repair/upgrade) their own equipment are the true R&D of companies like Fender and Marshall. The advancement/development of the vintage vacuum tube amp we know today was a result of touring artists and their "in the field" direct feedback regarding equipment issues.

[Lefty Lou]

FWIW, I own an early blonde Fender Showman head with aged yellow wheat straw grill cloth (60? or 61?) anyways I couldn't agree more especially when the Showman is used in conjunction with a Super Lead and a 4 x 12" for each head. Here's a pic of my Showman model.




It's basically a Fender Blonde Twin head.

[matriarch]

I think a couple of key point emerge setting aside most speculation

Facts
Jimi went through a lot of Marshalls
Many of these amps were subject to field repairs
Roger Mayer and Jimi's technical support people were no slouches, building custom stuff and modifying Fuzz faces
for specific sounds
why wouldn't the amps be modded for reliability, or stability (6550's) with just as much enthusiasm as a fuzzface

While I would be 99.999% certain they would never add a gain stage or extra tube, there are multiple ways
to work within the stock layout circuit and tweak parts values and adjust gain or headroom
Marshall was doing this to evolve their stock amps during this period.

Considering this forum is populated by a group of people who are into building, and tweaking amps
I think it is fair to suggest that some of Jimi's sounds are from amps having unique combinations
of plexi circuits and parts ... as the EVH amp has been described

Given that there is a history of missing and stolen amps involved... and given that most high level touring bands of the late 60's were preyed upon by thieves ... I wouldn't be surprised to find out that EVH's 230volt early Marshall was someones "prepared" touring head that had gone missing ... the give away is the fact that it was only set up for 230 volts
so the seller was not playing or possibly even able to turn it on

All of which brings the discussion around to the reasons why I read every detail of the EVH setup even though I am more of a super bass player.

Both players shared a warm Huge Marshall tone that prints to tape very well... I think the trails of breadcrumbs converge
at the same point

whatever you want to call them they were
Prototype heads
Transitional builds
Prepared touring heads for large venues
highly tweaked amps using the "mod" technology of the period

Though the sounds are different I believe there is Gold to be found in some of these early amp prep techniques

FWIW I always use multiple amps (two) and select them separately based on A: distortion Quality when run hard B: headroom & Bass response when run part way up ... run the two together and you have big bottom end & great overdrive
this is still the #1 touring technique most people do not understand ... multiple amps are used for frequency coverage as much as volume production ... & thats why you see some showman heads at Monterey


P

You see Showman amps at Monterey because they were the backline there

[parkhead]

there should be a section on these amp forums for documented celebrity /touring pro/ or historic amp mods

on the other hand I probably wouldn't share everything I have in my files if the section were to exist

anyhooo ... I sure would do a lot of lurking

p

[Lefty Lou]

there should be a section on these amp forums for documented celebrity /touring pro/ or historic amp mods

on the other hand I probably wouldn't share everything I have in my files if the section were to exist

anyhooo ... I sure would do a lot of lurking

p

I'm sure that it's often only discussed between the guitarist's amp techs and the manufacturers and that's how the mods/upgrades happen to specific amp models. I wrote an email to Randy Hansen's management about Randy's Marshall amps and any mods that he has performed to his Marshall amps used for live, and recorded events, but I really don't expect Randy to divulge that information although it would be nice if he could.

[parkhead]

I have seen some interesting stuff... but it rarely comes via a direct approach.

People close to artists can be very protective and secretive.
One guitarist with a huge tone who made a big fuss in interviews about plugging in direct, had a black box
underneath the guitar tech bench ... after the show I asked "hey whats that? " the tech responded
"oh thats a signal conditioner" funny that black box said "Garnet The Herzog" on the side

the Randy Bachman Herzog is a tube fuzz essentially a tweed champ with a 6 ohm load resistor
and a volume control to drive the input of a big amp

hooked up right its a massive wall of tube crunch goodness



I have noticed that on reviews of celebrity models of amps and stuff...

There was a cool VG article on SRV's vibroverb
but things get left out
and some things are intentionally very vague like the output transfomer swap in the vibroverb


the description was very vague and inconclusive was it a twin OT a Super OT or a 70's bassman OT
they look very similar, and they should have mentioned the code on the OT ... instead they went on
about how it was an impedance mismatch ... however a twin OT wouldn't have been a mismatch
if you do the math ... but a bassman would be and have a higher primary
two very different BIG OT sounds
so Now I have try both at $100 each LOL

P