Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

[Scumback Speakers]

Back in the 60's they didn't have the plethora of monitors, wedges aimed up at you from in front, etc. like there are now.

Look at old Cream albums/pics. They had freaking 4x12 columns hooked up to their Marshall 100w PA alongside their stacks.

The sideways facing cab would be a good way to have vocals go across the stage for Billy and Buddy to hear.

PA stuff has come along way since the late 60's. I seem to remember the wedge monitors (the ones that sit in front of the stage angled up at the singers) coming out in the late 70's, early 80's. I know my band paid big $$ for ones with a JBL in them. We had four guys who sang, so we had three across the stage in front.

I don't believe they had that kind of setup in the 60's, which is why you see cabs aimed across the stage to avoid as much feedback as possible through the mics.

But then again, it could have been a guitar cab, bass cab, vocal cab, whatever. Someone track down Billy Cox and ask him, He's the only one still alive that was at that gig.

[frenchie]

the thing is ; i don't see the purpose of micing a MONITOR cab for recording ....you mic the voice directly , you mic the bass stack of the bassist , you mic the guitar stack of the guitarist and then you mix up the tracks at the studio comfortably .....a monitor is here for monitoring some elements to the guitarist or the rest of the band , for comparison i never saw a wedge monitor with a mic pointed at it ...it's got a very specific use to me ; letting a member of a band hearing one other or others cuz the instrument(s) aren't aimed at him...but not recording ! if this cab was for monitoring purpose there simply wouldn't have been a mic on it ...at least to me..maybe i'm wrong....

[Scumback Speakers]

Well, there's no telling now what that mic was there for, or what the cab was for, but if logic serves me right and I follow your last post's train of thought, the chances of that mic'd JBL in that cab being heard over the three Marshall stacks is pretty thin, right?

I doubt Jimi heard those JBL's at less then knee high volume over six feet of Marshall stack 9 feet wide.

Let's face it, no one knows that we know of and can ask easily. Hell, maybe Billy Cox doesn't know. So we're all just speculating based on our experience and what makes sense to us.

[frenchie]

all i know jim is that in the early days of jimi's collaboration with sunn amplification he used to mix his sunn 2X15 cabinet with a marshall stack to get a blend .....read it's here in the second very long post ;
http://sunn.ampage.org/sdp/index.php?topic=3477.15;wap2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and now we're SURE that there was a miced sunn 2X15 jbl loaded cab on the bog stage ....

now the rest is pure deduction that's clear ;
but as you're right by saying a single 2X15 cab wouldn't be heard in front of a 3 stack arrangement , i really wonder if placing this already unhearable cab on the floor is the best way to have a monitor cab to hear the others !!!i personnaly would have placed it higher , not at my knee's height ...hey it's not even a slant after all , it's a fuckin' straight cab !!
sometimes common sense can do a lot ....usually after a murder the policemen put the guiltys in jail , of course weren't there but they can deduce , for the sake of justice wouldn't be a bad thing that deduction would be a good method...

for me this fuckin' 2X15 is reamplified into something else ..

[Scumback Speakers]

all i know jim is that in the early days of jimi's collaboration with sunn amplification he used to mix his sunn 2X15 cabinet with a marshall stack to get a blend .....read it's here in the second very long post ;
http://sunn.ampage.org/sdp/index.php?topic=3477.15;wap2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm aware that Jimi used some Sunn gear early in his career. That was probably before he got to using the G12H30 speakers with more bass response, though, I would imagine. You can listen to the post 68 tone, which is more refined/defined than the earlier stuff.

Part of it I'm sure is an amp head change, and the other part is the G12H30's vs the G12M's he used earlier.

Again, we're still at speculation without a first hand account from someone who was there at BOG.

[shakti]

Part of it I'm sure is an amp head change, and the other part is the G12H30's vs the G12M's he used earlier.

Slightly off topic, but do you think he used G12Ms early on? I thought his early pinstripe stacks all had 100 logos (which eventually broke off).

[basile865]

Man this little post has taken off! I hadnt looked at it since march. I was only posting up on the JBL's out of curiosity - whenever I think of some sort of new explanation or possibility I like to through it into the mix here.

On a seperate note I never said I nailed the BOG tone spot on with a fender. What I did say is I was impressed how much closer I was to it through my 4x12 than my plexi was at the time.

In my most recent tone endeavors though guys, its the combination of a lot of things to get in the BOG realm. Having a specific type of output tube and a specific speaker in a single halfstack simply wont cut it no matter what you've got in my opinion.

After adding that second tall cab with vintage 30's in it, I now can get the breath and depth, the clean huge warm sound that I was after. So much so that a 100 watt halfstack sounds like its name - HALF.

The point is, when you get so many speakers together, and so many heads, the tubes and speakers become a lot smaller in the picture. Yes of course they influence the sound, but for me right now its about combining amps and speakers of all types to get the king tone.

I never would've thought EL34's could seem so loud and clean until I just put in winged C's and had it biased for headroom. Now the whole 6550 thing is out the window to me, plus I just dont care anymore...I'm onto my own tone journey and I'm getting closer now with a full stack, some fresh tubes, and a good strat. The more amps/speakers the merrier.

[frenchie]

On a seperate note I never said I nailed the BOG tone spot on with a fender. What I did say is I was impressed how much closer I was to it through my 4x12 than my plexi was at the time.

i must have bad reading skills then

I was doing a mix match of cabs and heads today and found that my old DSL50 through my dads original 2x12 fender from his 66 bandmaster really gets real close to the band of gypsys sound suprisingly. Tried it with my scumbacks and it really wasn't as good, but I guess thats because they're new.

you said "through my dad's original 2X12 fender from his 66 bandmaster gets really close to the band of gypsys surprisingly " .......

i doubt there was greenbacks or scumbacks in your dad's 66 bandmaster FENDER cab..maybe i'm wrong ...dunno

[Scumback Speakers]

Slightly off topic, but do you think he used G12Ms early on? I thought his early pinstripe stacks all had 100 logos (which eventually broke off).

I think so. When Jimi started with Marshall, G12H's weren't even in cabs yet. Lots of early cabs had the 100 logo. That was only to designate it had 100w of power handling, so four 25w G12M's would have equated to that.

If you listen to Monterrey, there's nowhere near as much bass and high end as there are later after 68 when he switched to H's. Of course his signal chain had increased from a fuzz box to a wah/fuzzbox, and later in 69 to the wah/fuzzbox/univibe, so each of those is adding a bit more load to the signal, increasing bass response slightly (IME).

When that happened the high end of the G12H30's was cut just slightly by the load of the signal, too.

[Scumback Speakers]

you said "through my dad's original 2X12 fender from his 66 bandmaster gets really close to the band of gypsys surprisingly " .......

i doubt there was greenbacks or scumbacks in your dad's 66 bandmaster FENDER cab..maybe i'm wrong ...dunno

I had a client over about 7 months ago with an original blonde Bassman and matching 2x12 cab. His goal was to get the Electric Ladyland "Voodoo Chile" (the slow blues tune) tone. He got there with a pair of Scumnicos in his cab with his Strat and Bassman.

It just goes to show that Jimi used whatever was the right gear for a tune, whether it was in the studio or live. But without further proof, I believe it was Strat/wah/fuzzface/univibe, three stacks at BOG.

[shakti]

Slightly off topic, but do you think he used G12Ms early on? I thought his early pinstripe stacks all had 100 logos (which eventually broke off).

I think so. When Jimi started with Marshall, G12H's weren't even in cabs yet. Lots of early cabs had the 100 logo. That was only to designate it had 100w of power handling, so four 25w G12M's would have equated to that.

If you listen to Monterrey, there's nowhere near as much bass and high end as there are later after 68 when he switched to H's. Of course his signal chain had increased from a fuzz box to a wah/fuzzbox, and later in 69 to the wah/fuzzbox/univibe, so each of those is adding a bit more load to the signal, increasing bass response slightly (IME).

When that happened the high end of the G12H30's was cut just slightly by the load of the signal, too.

Well, if there's a person who knows the story of Celestion speakers, it's you, Jim...

But I must say I find the sound of a G12H speaker to be closer to any era Jimi tone than G12Ms. Although I have to add that my own experience is limited to the 55Hz versions of each of these, so a G12M 75Hz may be close to an early Jimi sound.

One thing though; when was the wattage rating for the G12M increased from 20 to 25? I thought that was early '68? I also though there were G12Hs from late '66/early '67 with a 25W rating? Just for the record, what's the earliest example of a G12H speaker you know of?

[frenchie]

i see jim don't worry ...... talking about almost all the other gigs and recordings ; no prob greenback all the way i'm with you hundred per cent .... but the BOG tone is really really really clear and crispy compared to the others recordings ... the only other type of tone i can compare to in terms of clearness and crispyness is the very early EVH live club recording made in 77 which showed up around in utube some times ago ...and his cabs had jbls and greenbacks mixed ...so ok...... maybe not proved ..... but on my side i've got a really really really STRONG feeling added with partial evidences .....and the word strong is weak .... hey everyone is allowed to think what they wan't after all no

[Scumback Speakers]

Well, if there's a person who knows the story of Celestion speakers, it's you, Jim...

But I must say I find the sound of a G12H speaker to be closer to any era Jimi tone than G12Ms. Although I have to add that my own experience is limited to the 55Hz versions of each of these, so a G12M 75Hz may be close to an early Jimi sound.

One thing though; when was the wattage rating for the G12M increased from 20 to 25? I thought that was early '68? I also though there were G12Hs from late '66/early '67 with a 25W rating? Just for the record, what's the earliest example of a G12H speaker you know of?

Greg Germino and I went over this a long time ago. Greg feels that G12H's were used in mid to late 67 after they came out in late 66, but before that it would have been G12M's since there were no H's.

The 25w rating on G12M's came about in mid to late 67, the move from 25w H's to 30 w came in around late 67 as they re-rated their speakers for the move from paper to kapton voice coils and the new adhesives that handled higher temperature.

The problem is that many times old 20w and 25w stickers were used well after the speakers were re-rated, so that confused the issue big time, of course.

The earliest example of a G12H 25w I know of (from reports) is late 66, according to some sources on the net, but I've never seen one in person, and no one has posted pics that I've seen either, so that's one problem. I know they're supposed to exist, but I'm one of those "show me!" type guys! That hasn't happened yet.

[shakti]

Hmm, I see...

...while we're on the subject, how are the paper voice coil clones coming along?

Am I correct in assuming a paper voice coil G12M is the most appropriate for a Fresh Cream type tone? And a paper voice coil G12H most appropriate for a mid '67 Hendrix sound?

[Scumback Speakers]

The paper voice coil project has run into a snag. According to Ted, there's one guy that makes them. He's in his 60's and does them when he gets time or "feels like it". Needless to say, he's either had no time or hasn't felt like it yet.