Reproducing AC/DC's "Back in Black Tone"

[Roe]

sounds pretty good to me. I always thought LTBR sounded like a boosted 1959

[SoloDallas]

Thanks bro.
I received the first two Vega wireless units (out of a total of 5 for now), these are the smaller ones, more recent.
However, they still are analog, and have still the boost.
While they are for microphones, I am having the microphone input modified for guitar, and try the wireless way first.
I believe that the frequencies transmitted wirelessly, also added "something".

Another little something to listen to: AC/DC "Go Down", with a boost into my 1959 JMP

http://www.solodallas.net/wp-content/up ... 3/down.mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I may open another thread for this, I think this deserves its own place (the Vega boost, that is. To me, it is the missing link).

[mrkrausman]

Thanks bro.
I received the first two Vega wireless units (out of a total of 5 for now), these are the smaller ones, more recent.
However, they still are analog, and have still the boost.
While they are for microphones, I am having the microphone input modified for guitar, and try the wireless way first.
I believe that the frequencies transmitted wirelessly, also added "something".

Another little something to listen to: AC/DC "Go Down", with a boost into my 1959 JMP

http://www.solodallas.net/wp-content/up ... 3/down.mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I may open another thread for this, I think this deserves its own place (the Vega boost, that is. To me, it is the missing link).

Excellent! Was that the Secret-1? What year 1959?

[Jerico]

Thanks for listening!

Dude what with the star wars trooper in the corner?

[SoloDallas]

I have "pretty big news" incoming.
Basically, here I claim that I "found" exact Angus Young tone ranging from (and including) 1977 to at least 1983.

Some of you may remember that I had been investigating on the now "defunct" Schaffer Vega Diversity wireless guitar system designed by Ken Schaffer in the late '70s (and built by "Vega" company).
I was able to track down and purchase a few later units, supposedly same circuit and components, and while I haven't tried those personally yet - I am on a business trip in India, coming back on Tuesday the 12th of April - someone tried them for me and they are very impressed.

Two different types of boost on the unit, one on the rear of the unit, one on the front.
In additional, a very good compander circuit (supposedly, the "Dynex" system) with a compressor and expander with adjustable settings.
Basically the result is a compressor and two boosts.

I say again, I presume now with almost arrogant certainty that THIS unit "defined" the missing link to Angus' tone of the era 1977-1983 (at least, probably a bit further).

Every detail is on my site, this is the most recent post, there are also "guts pictures" of the internals of the units (transmitter and receiver).

You won't disappointed.

I will make a brand new post here when I will have tested the units myself with audio and video clips and a proper article to tell the whole story.

Thanks!

SD

http://www.solodallas.net/breaking-news-the-vega-works/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[mrkrausman]

I will be following very close. Good Luck!

[leadguy]

You're probably right about the Schaffer Vega Diversity and maybe that's one of the reasons why I prefer Angus's earlier tones.

EVH seemed to use a Schaffer Vega Diversity around the same time as Angus but it seems only for live work and it did seem to change his tone into being more brittle and compressed but Ed also used different gear and gear settings to Angus as well, so a different overall result when the Schaffer Vega Diversity was used by both of them.

[spaceace76]

can't wait to see pictures and audio of this thing. Solodallas, would you be interested in taking pictures of the boards? I'd like to try this circuit out someday myself, but with the boosts/compander circuits as standalone units.

[SoloDallas]

Ace,
I knew someone would want to peek inside and shot a few internal guts images:

http://www.solodallas.net/the-cetec-veg ... ls-images/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, I finally returned from a long business trip and had a chance to try my Vega personally.
It's a 1993 unit, so it's 16 years after the original Schaffer Vega came out.
However, I suspect it was left almost untouched internally to the original version.

I had a whole day to test it out yesterday and I am very pleased.
Some audio clips here:

http://www.solodallas.net/its-the-vega- ... o-content/

[spaceace76]

sounds amazing! you've definitely nailed it. but i doubt I need to tell you that

as far as copying anything from those photos, kind of a daunting task without having the unit in front of me, nearly impossible to see all the printed values etc. this isn't a bash on your photography skills, but the component count is rather high so REing from a photo would be a terrible idea. anything I'd come up with would be most likely full of errors. plus, considering the signal is being sent via radio waves, there are probably all kinds of things in the signal path that would be unnecessary in a standalone version, and I'd need the real unit in front of me to compare and study to make sure the new circuit was operating similarly if not exactly the same. i feel like that would involve a lot of "simulation" in the new circuit, but I'd still need an original to compare final sound.

I guess what I'm getting at here is, I found a new toy to save up for
thanks for your hard work SD! very interesting to find out that there really WAS something adding to that great sound

[SoloDallas]

Thanks Ace
Well, matter of fact is... I have someone working on a replica unit!
But a standalone one, no wireless. Who is working on it has two more of my units (one working, one non working). I had a total of three units bought for a total of 195 USD. I usually never score any deal, but this one was.

Thing is though, that at least the Cetec Vega units are now cheap.
Other thing may be to find an original Schaffer Vega: I would be buying one immediately if one was available. I put an ad on gearslutz, but no answer.

Anyway, a prototype replica box is being built in these very days. It will take some time and the box will go back and forth from me to the laboratory where the other units are (and the same lab that fixed the unit I have with me, so the guys are really good).

IF it sounds just like it should and even better, THEN I will put it on the market.

[spaceace76]

very cool to hear. would love to know how big the circuit ends up after removing the unnecessary components. actually, from what your tech told you, would you mind answering a few questions for me?

is the boost fairly clean? i'm hazarding a guess you can probably emulate this with two clean boosts and a compressor. do you think this is the case? if so, what order do these effects go in?
is it boost1 > comp > (wireless signal) boost2? or something different?

thanks for any info you can provide

[SoloDallas]

is the boost fairly clean? i'm hazarding a guess you can probably emulate this with two clean boosts and a compressor. do you think this is the case? if so, what order do these effects go in?
is it boost1 > comp > (wireless signal) boost2? or something different?

thanks for any info you can provide

Have no idea how the boost is yet (i.e., clean or dirty); I'll have to hear it on its own. I suppose it's entirely clean, since it was used for microphones as well.

There is a description - in very general terms - done by Ken Schaffer himself, I posted it on my site.
Thing is that, the transmitter (TX) has a "gain" knob on it. This though, is not exactly a boost. It is a "sensitivity" knob, that does more than a simple boost. It also adds compression. So it's boost and compression altogether.
The signal gets boosted and compressed. Then sent to wireless.
Then, the signal is received by the receiver (RX) and expanded (to remove compression).
However, the expander is set to a default (tweakable! one can change most settings also from inside of the complex RX unit, impressive) value. So, if you really "boosted" sensitivity up high on the TX, just some compression will be removed by the RX. Some will stay. This is why Angus WAS indeed slightly compressed and many people thought that the recording engineers were using compression while recording. They most often weren't (Tony Platt confirms this).
Then the signal gets optionally boosted (there are two independent boosts on the RX; one is adjustable from the rear and outputs as an XLR jack; the other one, is on the front panel and it says "monitor volume", adjustable by its own knob easily).

Angus had indeed talked about a "monitor switch" from which one could boost the guitar.
The boost on the receiver is dependent on the amount of TX "sensitivity" that you dialed in on the TX.

It's tricky, and I suspect that these settings (TX, RX) have been changed slightly from song to song and album to album during the years, when the Schaffer Vega was used in the studio (so far, we know that it was used fully in Back in Black and at least for solos in Highway to Hell; all album for Flick of The Switch and maybe later albums up to Blow Up Your Video).

It is really huge in terms of a finding in my humble opinion, and I am glad I did find out.

Tonally, I am still confused to what it really adds. What I can say for sure is that with the guitar volume knob on full, there is a HUGE boost on the bass frequencies. So much that the tone becomes super fat.
To make you a super clear example, the solo in Back in Black (the song) is exactly what you get right from the start.
That is the best example sonically of what the Vega does to solos. Fat, Bassy and creamy.

I am told that the receiver has a built in power supplier that is very "strong". Putting out a lot of volts that really choke the amplifier's input.

Don't know much more than this yet. But I will know more.

[SoloDallas]

While I haven't updated this Post with new info, I feel the progress I have mde on the mtter is enormous.

- I confirmed (all factual proof on solodallas.net) that Angus received his Schaffer Vega Diversity System (SVDS) in August 1977
- I was able to confirm tht the SVDS was used in the studio from 1978 onward
- Not being able to find a SVDS anywhere, I tried contacting Mr. Schaffer personally.
After a while, we became friends. I was able to purchase from him a number of original, working units.

A 1:1 replic of it will be soldto the market. Prototype is being designed. The replica will not be wireless. It will be eteriorly identical to the original SVDS. It will feature a compander and a boost, sonically IDENTICAL to the ones embedded in the original SVDS.

A raw recording of it follows.
Recorded with a vintage Neumann U67', 1970 Gibson SG standard, 1959 head and G12M pre rola speakers.


http://www.solodallas.net/wp-content/up ... b-svds.mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[BAinFL]

A raw recording of it follows.
Recorded with a vintage Neumann U67', 1970 Gibson SG standard, 1959 head and G12M pre rola speakers.


http://www.solodallas.net/wp-content/up ... b-svds.mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sounds unbelievable Solo =) Dead on.

But did Angus have the ringing cell phone as well =P Wonder how that impacted the SVDS signal...