Interactive 45/100 build journal?

Ricky Lee · Post by **Ricky Lee** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:52 pm

You can cut down on a lot of needless questions by not just showing how and where a pieces/part goes but give it's name and what it 's used for as well. Example, we've all heard the term swamp, snubber, screen resistor etc. but I'd bet you'd never find those words in any of the manuals and many of the newbies here are not that savvy. Normally the instructions stop at where the part starts, where it ends and the value if it's a resistor or cap. When people know what roll a part plays in an amp and how it effects the operation of the amp it gives the average person at least some basic understanding when it comes to trouble shooting, and that's where most questions stem from. This site has become more than just paint-by-numbers to a lot of us just because of the combined knowledge that has been past to one another. Just my 2 cents for the day gentlemen.

S.Marshall · Post by **S.Marshall** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:45 pm

Ricky Lee wrote: When people know what roll a part plays in an amp and how it effects the operation of the amp it gives the average person at least some basic understanding when it comes to trouble shooting, and that's where most questions stem from.

I could not agree with this more. This is the stuff I want to know. It didn't take long to figure out what goes where. I want to know WHY!

NY Chief · Post by **NY Chief** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:16 pm

That's because I hadn't built anything yet at the time I took the pics. Trust me, it don't look like that no more!

NY Chief · Post by **NY Chief** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:20 pm

Ricky Lee wrote:You can cut down on a lot of needless questions by not just showing how and where a pieces/part goes but give it's name and what it 's used for as well. Example, we've all heard the term swamp, snubber, screen resistor etc. but I'd bet you'd never find those words in any of the manuals and many of the newbies here are not that savvy. Normally the instructions stop at where the part starts, where it ends and the value if it's a resistor or cap. When people know what roll a part plays in an amp and how it effects the operation of the amp it gives the average person at least some basic understanding when it comes to trouble shooting, and that's where most questions stem from. This site has become more than just paint-by-numbers to a lot of us just because of the combined knowledge that has been past to one another. Just my 2 cents for the day gentlemen.

Like this?
http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php ... sc&start=0

And the diagram that George put together that shows a lot, here...

http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=15719

S.Marshall · Post by **S.Marshall** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:47 pm

Like this?
http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php ... sc&start=0

And the diagram that George put together that shows a lot, here...

http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=15719[/quote]

I was able to find all that with a search. Great info but still didn't tell me what role each part plays. I want to know exactly what each resistor and capacitor does and how changing the value or type effects tone and the circuit in general. Example: V1A Cathode..What happens if I change the value of the cap but keep the 820 resistor? What if I just change the value of the resistor? What if I change the type of resistor? This is the good stuff.

Steve

Ricky Lee · Post by **Ricky Lee** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:04 pm

That's great information but that's not what I'm talking about. It's how the information is applied and where it is retrieved from at the time the person is building the amp. If that information were put in the instruction manual in conjunction with the pieces/part that's being installed there would be less need for one to run all over the net looking for the answer or asking questions that have already been answered a million times, thus taking the work load off of many as well as helping to clean up these repeated questions that get processed thru the search feature here and yonder making the search feature a big headache. Do a search on this site and you get a million threads that have nothing to do with what your looking for. And it's because the same question has been ask a million times but just phrased a little different. Example I did a recent search for amp jigs and I got EVH thread which only mentioned the amp jig as one of the tools recommended to build an amp i.e. 99.9% EVH information 1% amp jig.

S.Marshall · Post by **S.Marshall** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:32 pm

Another thing to think about is that while a lot of us want every minute detail, there are a lot of people who just want to put it together and plug in using the parts provided in the kit. Myself, I'm not a kit guy but I think putting too much information on the Main Build thread might cause more problems. Keep the main one simple but informative and do a seperate "advanced" thread for the people who want it. One advanced discussion would pertain to all amps anyway. No point saying the same stuff over and over for each amp build. JMO

Steve

thousandshirts · Post by **thousandshirts** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:19 pm

S.Marshall wrote: I think the final product would be pretty cool.

The best thing could very possibly be having a definitive reference available, along with numerous unofficial threads detailing the work of everyone and anyone.

When I say definitive, I mean that George and Flames' 50 and 100 watt instruction books are authoritative, clean, easy enough for anyone reading English to understand, and, most of all, COMPLETE. Complete, in that the goal to reproduce a certain Marshall circuit is satisfied; Flames' very well done and comprehensive job on the Super Lead/Bass is the kind of distance to which an authoritative guide should go.

When I say numerous unofficial threads, I mean the people out there who take the time to photograph and take some time to share their progress or results with the rest of us. The photographic evidence, combined with the written responses of the builders involved, their impressions of their results, and in many cases, even exhaustive soundclips for comparison (hey, we ALL enjoy that part! Listening to the hotshot players here test .022's against .0022's is AWESOME) are absolutely priceless. There is nothing to replace human error; we have the original Marshalls we are attempting to reproduce and we have successful reproductions that are documented faithfully by fantastic builders, but the foibles and follies are truly priceless. Repeated problems that we have found in multiple build threads in the past have been incorporated into the PDF manuals, E.G., Flames took extra measure in his manual to ensure that a 470 Ohm instead of a 470K Ohm resistor is used in the phase inverter section.

S.Marshall wrote: I want to know exactly what each resistor and capacitor does and how changing the value or type effects tone and the circuit in general. Example: V1A Cathode..What happens if I change the value of the cap but keep the 820 resistor? What if I just change the value of the resistor? What if I change the type of resistor? This is the good stuff.

A PDF document such as the 50 and 100 watt instruction books by George and Andy are able to provide answers for the vast sum of questions that would typically arise in a 'stock' build. A section on the forum here in the technical section for voltage charts, though, I think would be useful. A voltage chart, combined with a bit of basic troubleshooting, such as low voltage on pin "X" of V2 means "resistor 'Y' is fried" would probably solve 50% of the problems not dealt with by close inspection in the manuals. This troubleshooting information is also readily available elsewhere, but voltage charts aren't subject to copyright or anything, and are easy to post. These could be chalked up pretty easily, even considering various wall voltages and transformer choices (I think there are enough people here that we could get a voltage chart for just about any popular transformer and wall voltage), and then the charts could be posted or 'dropped' in the Technical Reference section along with the already existing bills of materials, layouts, and charts. The voltage charts, even without any troubleshooting info, would be great on their own.

When detouring too far into the minutae a manual becomes HUGE, unweildy, and not useful for the majority. Added details as to how each resistor and capacitor changes the overall workings of the amp are best left somewhere else, namely, the MetroAmp forum, and the numerous books online and offline that are already available. It would take some spare time for folks to search through public domain copies of older manuals to find page numbers and what not, but a list could be made up, and as I say, it is public domain. Some of this detailed information has been taken up by George already, but making a manual full of this stuff has already been done, largely by Men in White Frock Lab Coats from the 1930's, 40's, and 50's, who were paid to do it as perfectly as humanly possible. Perhaps, as George mentioned, some kind of interactive type program, this kind of approach could survive; I do like that idea, and it's worth looking into. Be a lot of work, though.

Ultimately putting together a good PDF for any amp should be easily possible with the addition of time and the genius of any of our super builders. George and Andy and Dan and many others here on this board are obviously qualified to put together a manual, and with a bit of help and a bit of editing, I'm sure the manuals would be as good as a person could find anywhere.

Although it can take a bit of time to search for what you want on the forum, the search engine is better than many (yeah, worse than some), and an obscure problem that someone had back in 2003 are still of use right now.

S.Marshall wrote: The Best of the Best and the rest DELETED!

To actually delete any of the contributions made here would be a terrible error, I think, regardless of how bad a build went or how simple a fix the problem was. With people hosting images off the site (free photo hosting gives multiple gigabytes these days), it's possible to keep this stuff for a long, long time. The admins here could even set up their own "mule" photobucket accounts to host photos (especially more important ones), and back them up (in case photobucket crashes) before the people who initially posted the photos start deleting them. Myfoot has some great "ass" photos in the off topic section, but I mean, more importantly, just the pertinent info and pictures pertaining to amp builds. MetroAmp can be down to hosting basic text alone (along with some other necessary documents), and the bandwidth/hosting costs can be kept as they are. Surely some deleted posts or threads are to be expected, but by no means should anything but the best of the best be deleted as far as I'm concerned; with a bit of leg work the monetary (hosting/bandwith) and logistic (photos disappearing over time) problems of keeping old threads alive are absolutely nil. And really the errors are in many cases as valuable as the "official" documentation. The search engine is there for a reason, this IS the internet, and whoever made it this far--if they're really stuck--is probably going to use the search engine.

I really don't think it's a good idea to forcefully streamline things. It's great as it is now, with the huge body of posters and enthusiasts, and as we've seen, eventually the people like Flames--on their own time--step forward and produce great manuals. I'm sure BB will accomplish much the same with his 45/100, which so far (nice use of shrink tubing) is looking great.

gutpile · Post by **gutpile** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:07 pm

I am starting my build tonight! I plan on taking some quality photos and documenting my progress step by step... I am looking forward to this project!

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:12 pm

Use the 45/100 build forum for it! Ive continued but I havent posted the progress yet.

gutpile · Post by **gutpile** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:24 pm

That's the plan BB

S.Marshall · Post by **S.Marshall** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:51 pm

thousandshirts wrote:
To actually delete any of the contributions made here would be a terrible error, I think............................

By delete I in no way meant gone forever. Just deleted from the final cut. I agree those things are just as important if not more in some cases. I thought the point of this was to assemble a section where people could go and watch a "clean" build from A to Z and I thought it was going to be a free for all submission on each section. You would have to weed through (delete) that to end up with a mistake free A2Z. Setting it up the way George did "By Permission Only", is great I think. Took care of the clutter right out of the gate.

As far as the 50 and 100 watt instructions go, are they available outside of the kit?

Steve

thousandshirts · Post by **thousandshirts** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:40 pm

S.Marshall wrote: By delete I in no way meant gone forever. Just deleted from the final cut.

Oh for sure. I love this place, and was just speaking my peace.

S.Marshall wrote: I agree those things are just as important if not more in some cases. I thought the point of this was to assemble a section where people could go and watch a "clean" build from A to Z and I thought it was going to be a free for all submission on each section. You would have to weed through (delete) that to end up with a mistake free A2Z. Setting it up the way George did "By Permission Only", is great I think. Took care of the clutter right out of the gate.

I agree, it is very nice. I think it's a great idea and will result in an excellent final product.

S.Marshall wrote: As far as the 50 and 100 watt instructions go, are they available outside of the kit?

50: http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=14850
100: http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=17286

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:29 am

S.Marshall wrote:
thousandshirts wrote:
To actually delete any of the contributions made here would be a terrible error, I think............................
By delete I in no way meant gone forever. Just deleted from the final cut. I agree those things are just as important if not more in some cases. I thought the point of this was to assemble a section where people could go and watch a "clean" build from A to Z and I thought it was going to be a free for all submission on each section. You would have to weed through (delete) that to end up with a mistake free A2Z. Setting it up the way George did "By Permission Only", is great I think. Took care of the clutter right out of the gate.

As far as the 50 and 100 watt instructions go, are they available outside of the kit?

Steve

If you dont delete the off-topic stuff then the 45/100 build blog is no different then the rest of the forum where you can never find anything because each topic is bloated with irrelevant- or even if not irrelevant, off topic, shit.

thousandshirts · Post by **thousandshirts** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:39 pm

Billy Batz wrote:
If you dont delete the off-topic stuff then the 45/100 build blog is no different then the rest of the forum where you can never find anything because each topic is bloated with irrelevant- or even if not irrelevant, off topic, shit.

Looks as though nobody but approved moderators can post in THAT thread anyhow so it makes no difference. I can definitely deal without off topic stuff in a clean blog type thread. It was not clarified at any point in THIS thread that we had arrived at a suitable format or game plan, and I was concerned more about posts on the board in general. Which, I think, should continue to remain unedited. I can do without the "does this swimsuit make my ass look big" pictures being archived, and I can do without the "great looking thread" comments being archived. So if mods are going to go back and start cleaning up old threads, that's what I was worried about. By all means, cut the crap; my only concern was the nutritious fiber of mistakes.