Why are there so many really bad "sound guys"?

killertone · Post by **killertone** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:36 pm

I am a sound engineer for a living and also a musician who gigs very regularly. I have a studio but run sound live quite often at a very reputable club in Austin. The question should be, "Why are most local bands complete idiots?". As a gigging musician, I realize that some sound guys are bad, but you oughta work live sound sometime and see how a lot of bands act. It is amazing. Balls the size of basketballs on a lot of them and they can't play to save their lives...

flemingmras · Post by **flemingmras** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:14 pm

Oh I totally agree with that one. I am a musician/sound engineer myself. However as a sound engineer I am a musician first and foremost. This makes the band trust me when I tell the guitar players to turn the fuck down.

Jon

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:43 pm

flemingmras wrote:Oh I totally agree with that one. I am a musician/sound engineer myself. However as a sound engineer I am a musician first and foremost. This makes the band trust me when I tell the guitar players to turn the fuck down.

Jon

+1. I totally agree.

sub · Post by **sub** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:38 pm

I changed my opinion!

I met a cool sound guy (thanks god)!
First who like it electric guitar sound!

The guy made very cool drum, bass sound also (with cheap stuffs!)
Believe me: about here (i live) attitude is horrible........ this is why i send angry post........ sorry if i was offensive

Flames1950 · Post by **Flames1950** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:16 pm

Since I had to take part in setting up my last band's sound and act as a guitar player I really do understand the problems........I can't get the sound I want at 75dB either, guys......

There are alternatives to turning down or attenuators. Fire your cab into a wall, either sideways or straight behind you. If you can't hear it well enough I'm sure the sound guy would be happier adding a bit of guitar into the monitors than dealing with a full-on 100 watt Marshall. Or build a plexiglas baffle with hinged sides and top like "Nickcha" did.

My 4x12 was always aimed at the side wall on my side of the stage, with just enough room to head back there for some Hendrix-inspired feedback.

You've gotta have some kind of plan before you and the sound guy are both under fire though. Think it through as carefully as you did deciding on your Les Pauls and Marshalls. Because in the end, you're both there for one thing: SELLING BEER.

sub · Post by **sub** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:54 am

It is also only a f&@in business not art

shakti · Post by **shakti** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:12 pm

Soundcheck is always something like this:

1) Struggle to find place to put your gear in between all the monitors and ridiculously large, hot and noise-inducing light rigs

2) Power up only to hear insane ground loop noise

3) Watch drummer hit the snare for 5 minutes straight, then each tom for at least 10 minutes each

4) Watch drummer hit bass drum for 20 minutes straight

5) Listen in agony as sound of nice drum set is transformed into mechanical, harsh, painful noise wash mess through PA.

6) Feel ugly bass drum thud pound you in the chest and drown out everything else

7) Test sound of amp

Listen to sound guy yell at you to turn down

9) Turn down amp to where you can never hear it onstage over drums, even if you're right in front of it, and to where any sympathetic feedback disappears, and life is sucked right out

10) Listen in pain to soundguy wanting to take over the whole sound of your band, close-miking amp right off cone and trashing the sound you've struggled to achieve through practice, NOS tubes, tweaking etc, simply by one turn of the EQ knob

11) Listen in absolute disgust to the harsh, painful, awful *mess* that is the result of soundguy completely unfamiliar with your music deciding to play God for an evening, and thinking only he knows how to balance things by running *everything* through the PA.

Seriously, the gigs I've been to with the best sound (in the venues that I've played myself - typically 200-500 capacity clubs), have invariably been the gigs where most of the volume actually comes from the *stage* and not the PA. How can you expect anything to sound good if you're trying to force all the sound into those tiny boxes? It's a recipe for disaster!! PAs are there for *reinforcement*, not as the main source of volume. Clever onstage placement of instruments and fair volume is the starting point, then you add a little bit here and there of the stuff that gets drowned out through the PA.

The next time I hear a soundguy trying to be clever and say "if it gets any louder onstage now, we won't need the PA", I'm just gonna yell out: "PERFECT!!!"

Andy · Post by **Andy** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:41 pm

"can you turn your amp down so I can put you in the mix?"

This comes from two things, both easily(?) solved.

First- most sound guys have volume controls that just reduce the volume, when they see your amp with one they think it is the same thing. They need to understand that it does not make your guitar quieter as much as it changes the tone. This will be a revelation to most sound guys.

Second- Most guitarists think that if they need to lower their volume, and they are gunna be mic'd anyway, then use fewer speakers i.e. 1x12 or 2x12 will be quieter...WRONG. What the sound guy is looking for is to be able to bring the guitar, which is close mic'd, up on the board. With, say a single speaker what he gets is all of your amps power straight into the mic! ...bottom line, use a 4x12! The one speaker the mic is on then is only putting out 1/4 of the amps power (-6db). This will allow the sound guy to have power over the mix again...which we all know is what he wanted anyway ...POWER!

-Andy

flemingmras · Post by **flemingmras** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:37 pm

On another note, start with the guitar mic'ed. If it's too loud by itself, start with bringing the other instruments up around the guitar. Eventually you'll reach a point where everything is WAY louder than the guitar. If you have headroom left(which in a well designed/built system you should), then bring the guitar in the mix to balance with everything else.

Jon

Myopic Void... · Post by **Myopic Void...** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:54 pm

Shatki is dead on...For a power trio the PA is there for extra reinforcement. For small to medium venues, you naturally mic vocals and maybe a mic or two on the bass drum and snare depending on the set and how heavy of a hitter you have. That's it. Why the hell did they make Marshall stacks, Vistalite 14x26 bass drums and folded horn 18" Acoustic cabs in the first place? To right off the bat get miked? No, to get the sound to project own it's own in many applications without additional reinforcment.

Another issue to consider, the gear most sound guy's use is well...CRAP. To begin with these are not console's with discrete Class A mic-pre's, Ueri 1176 compressors, Lexicon PCM-80 reverbs. It is your made in China Alesis/Beringer/Art junk. Is is unlikely you will not find that kinda gear on world class shows or TV show broadcast. Your Marshall is 9 out of 10 times getting feed through a load of cheap shellac. Your amp deserves better.

I reccomend standing your ground, and if that does not get you the cigar.. then walk, then at least a precedent is set when bands start walking. We do...

Cheers,

E

myopic Void... · Post by **myopic Void...** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:58 pm

Correction on typo below...

Shatki is dead on...For a power trio the PA is there for extra reinforcement. For small to medium venues, you naturally mic vocals and maybe a mic or two on the bass drum and snare depending on the set and how heavy of a hitter you have. That's it. Why the hell did they make Marshall stacks, Vistalite 14x26 bass drums and folded horn 18" Acoustic cabs in the first place? To right off the bat get miked? No, to get the sound to project own it's own in many applications without additional reinforcment.

Another issue to consider, the gear most sound guy's use is well...CRAP. To begin with these are not console's with discrete Class A mic-pre's, Ueri 1176 compressors, Lexicon PCM-80 reverbs. It is your made in China Alesis/Beringer/Art junk. You will not find that kinda gear on world class shows or TV show broadcast. Your Marshall is 9 out of 10 times getting feed through a load of cheap shellac. Your amp deserves better.

I reccomend standing your ground, and if that does not get you the cigar.. then walk, then at least a precedent is set when bands start walking. We do...

Cheers,

E

Necrovore · Post by **Necrovore** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:40 pm

I can't believe that you guys actually fall for the request to turn down your amp. With the exception of Jon and George, who by the way I've never had the pleasure yet of running sound for me. The only thing I EVER do when asked to turn down is to act like I am turning my amp down.

Every stage I have played on except one club in El Paso has had utter shite monitoring. If that dufus soundguy thinks that I am going to turn down onstage so the drums drown me out and expect to play a show like that and stay in timing he is nuts.

There was one sound guy here in San Antonio that was such a fucking dick about having the guitarists turn down he would actually sometimes go and turn down the amps himself. Well lets say that he did that once to mine and then had to take a trip to the ER and didn't get to be sound nazi that night.

rockstah · Post by **rockstah** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:42 pm

Necrovore wrote:I can't believe that you guys actually fall for the request to turn down your amp. With the exception of Jon and George, who by the way I've never had the pleasure yet of running sound for me. The only thing I EVER do when asked to turn down is to act like I am turning my amp down.

Every stage I have played on except one club in El Paso has had utter shite monitoring. If that dufus soundguy thinks that I am going to turn down onstage so the drums drown me out and expect to play a show like that and stay in timing he is nuts.

There was one sound guy here in San Antonio that was such a fucking dick about having the guitarists turn down he would actually sometimes go and turn down the amps himself. Well lets say that he did that once to mine and then had to take a trip to the ER and didn't get to be sound nazi that night.

maaaaan!!! if a sound guy ever turned me down himself i would go crazy on him!

johniss0001 · Post by **johniss0001** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:56 pm

as jon was saying about local bands i can agree wit ya they think they are the mutts nutts givem a guitar and they think they are god when i know i can blow most of that arseholes of the stage with my stage presence

I admit i can be a wee bit cockey with my music but i can back it up, there was this little pisser of a kid the other day blaggin that he was better than me and he thinks he has more or better amps than me, he plays nirvana and all that crap. He has been playing guitar for a year and he can't even name the chords he uses to play smells like teen spirit when i know some1 who has been playing guitar for 15 mins who can play an E A D better than tht guy that has been playing a year!

I have done sound for bands as an engineer and i have never told the guitars to turn down as much if anything it is turn it up as guitarists here are bloody shy big mouths no balls to back it up where as i am not scared! I have a gig in 20 days and i am using the marshall for bass so every1 is going to have to turn up to keep up with me as i am not wasting this opportunity to see what the beast can do and my bass is going to be slightly stronger than everything else not louder but more there.

There are certain decent sound guys out there and there are some arseholes as well.

Bad Kitty · Post by **Bad Kitty** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:41 pm

Whenever I do a gig and there's a soundman I give him exactly what he really wants. I start a tab at the bar for him and buy him a hooker to tell him how wonderful he is for the night.
Then I do exactly what I always do, run the sound myself

.
Nobody's going to work as hard for your sound as much as you are.