Low volume micing

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:47 am

Heard about those myself. Supposedly when you take out the pad and low cut boards its supposed to fair extremely well with Nuemans. But who wants to mess with modding one? I guess its not that hard. Theres a damaged one on ebay right now.

Myopic Void · Post by **Myopic Void** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:08 am

Bluesgeetar wrote:My understanding from David Paton and some other big folks I've exchanged some dialogue with is that in the late 60s and 70s the U87 is the shit and is used more often than not on many old recordings where you might think a u67 or u47 is used. Not so. Abbey was using the hell out of the U87 mics. got this info from folks that was there. So we all can't be rich like my ol buddy Eric! So what is the next best? In some blind listening tests with some Abbey engineers, it could not be differentiated between the U87 and the Oktava MK319. Difference? About 4 grand in price! I paid $79 each for my two MK319. I don't know how much they are now but I love mine. Still would liek to have a U87 just to try though. Difference is that the MK319 can be modded for little coin to be much much better! I also have some Apex mics that are built around a 12A tube type that are super nice. Can't afford the old $30,000 Telefunkens. A few mods and a NOS 12A type she's incredible.

Hey Buddy I have heard the same thing about the MK319. I would like to try this and mod one of these.

Heard about those myself. Supposedly when you take out the pad and low cut boards its supposed to fair extremely well with Nuemans. But who wants to mess with modding one? I guess its not that hard. Theres a damaged one on ebay right now.

If you have time, try what Bluesguitar is suggesting. I have heard good things about this mic too. You can't beat 79.00! And since you can build an amp really well this would be easy I think.

BTW if you guys run into an 1967-80 U87 in your searches for mic's I am hunting for another. I need 3 total. With the market poor they should be coming down even more.

Cheers,

Eric

Bluesgeetar · Post by **Bluesgeetar** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:08 am

Billy Batz wrote: But who wants to mess with modding one? I guess its not that hard.

Who wants to mess with modding them!!!!!!?? Well how bout someone who ain't got a few grand for a new Neumann u87 or even more coin for an older vintage one. I save myself a few house payments and just go with a MK319 that I have to do a little tinkerin with. Keep in mind though that the blind listening tests that floored the worlds best engineers were done with stock Oktava! Not modded ones.

I'm guessing that you got way more free cash to play with than me Billy.

Myopic Void · Post by **Myopic Void** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:40 pm

Bluesgeetar wrote:
Billy Batz wrote: But who wants to mess with modding one? I guess its not that hard.
Who wants to mess with modding them!!!!!!?? Well how bout someone who ain't got a few grand for a new Neumann u87 or even more coin for an older vintage one. I save myself a few house payments and just go with a MK319 that I have to do a little tinkerin with. Keep in mind though that the blind listening tests that floored the worlds best engineers were done with stock Oktava! Not modded ones.

I'm guessing that you got way more free cash to play with than me Billy.

Sorry Billy we have gotten off topic as we need to help you find a solution for your situation. I think the 421 is the way to go with a good discrete mic-pre or Chris's suggestion sounds logical too.

Honestly Chris, I have seen used U87's drop in price

...for what you pay to build a Metro JTM45 (without premo parts) you can sometimes find a U87. Maybe not super clean but still working. Shure, you can drop 3 grand walking into Guitar Center buying off the shelf Neumanns... but they are WAY to pricey and the circuit is in fact different. Cheaper components, can't take the higher SPL etc.

to digress a bit more...sorry

This is my deal with U87's in spite of some complaints about them...as you said they are on just about every record you & I love, that should tell us something

, furthermore I tried the, Royer 121, RE20's 421's Rode LDC's and CAD LDC's on our bass drum and for whatever reason they pale in comparison to the U87. I just want mic's that provide solutions. It (U87) is the benchmark for me on bass drums and overheads and vocals. I have retired my other mic's for 14x26" bass drums.

My goal is to have 3 U87's on the kit and spot mic's for the snare, hi hat etc and then the Sennheiser ME40 for the room. I still have a way to go on the Neumanns...

Cheers,

Eric

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:59 pm

Bluesgeetar wrote:
Billy Batz wrote: But who wants to mess with modding one? I guess its not that hard.
Who wants to mess with modding them!!!!!!?? Well how bout someone who ain't got a few grand for a new Neumann u87 or even more coin for an older vintage one. I save myself a few house payments and just go with a MK319 that I have to do a little tinkerin with. Keep in mind though that the blind listening tests that floored the worlds best engineers were done with stock Oktava! Not modded ones.

I'm guessing that you got way more free cash to play with than me Billy.

Lol. I guess your right. And if I had that much cash Id just get a Neumann!

And FYI I dont see them for $79 anymore anywhere? Maybe Im looking int he wrong places. Even on shitbay theyre going for more then 2x that if you search compelted listings.

NitroLiq · Post by **NitroLiq** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:24 pm

I hate to be the dissenter of the group but I've always thought U87s were a bit overhyped and overpriced. I think they're good for certain applications

Myopic Void · Post by **Myopic Void** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:49 am

I think it's a bit overkill for what Dan wants.

C'mon Pete THERE IS NO KILL LIKE OVERKILL

I hate to be the dissenter of the group but I've always thought U87s were a bit overhyped and overpriced.

Geeez Pete, why pour so much derision on the mighty U87?

. Just kidding...I understand new ones are way to pricey and not perfect for everything..the same goes for me with the SM57 (save price) in spite of it's repute as the gold standard for cabs. I really struggled over the years to get something I liked out of them. I had better luck with 421's then the Royer 121.

Dan needs the 421 I maintain... unless he wants build a tube mic which could be a great choice

Cheers,

Eric

NitroLiq · Post by **NitroLiq** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:29 am

I didn't mean to bag on it. It's a good utilitarian condenser and obviously used everywhere. I just think it's become another one of those "name" things that allow them to keep the price so high, especially nowadays, with condensers such as rodes and others driving prices down. Maybe the difference is in Chinese parts for some of these mics...maybe none can compare to the Neumanns. I've never had the opportunity to compare budget condensers to things like Neumann or the high end Sonys and AKGs. The 87s, at least in most of my trials with them, turned out less than flattering...a little boomy on vocals....neutral for everything else (which is a good thing). They sound killer on your clips, Eric, if that's what you're using. I think I just lean towards mics with a little bit of "flattering" coloration like the 414 TL II I mentioned earlier.

When I was on the recording engineer path (in a previous life) I was blessed that the studio had a serious arsenal of mics to choose from, my favs being the U-47, M-49, and U-67. The M49, though....man, nothing could touch it as a vocal mic (for my voice, anyway). Best mic I've ever had the pleasure of using...that through a 1073 or 1066 module into an LA2A and straight board...perfection.

I think many of us are restricted to low-volume home recording. Whenever I pick up a Rode NTK Tube mic, I'll post some results. I'll need to do this soon...I think my beta 57 is starting to bite the dust.

Eric, did you ever make any recordings of the Hiwatt restoration?

Bluesgeetar · Post by **Bluesgeetar** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:51 am

Well, if your looking to buy a tube mic to get that ultra old school sound you can't go wrong with a APEX 460. Cheap and with mods it is a beast. Alot cheaper than an old 30 grand Telefunken. I can't find the files on the mods for the MK219, MK012, MK319 and ML52 at the moment (I do have them though somewhere) but I do have the schematic for the mods to the APEX460 easy at hand. An even further upgrade would be a Peluso capsule. I think ther most expensive one is only $195. But the stock capsule is nice too. http://www.pelusomicrophonelab.com/capsnmnts.html

Myopic Void · Post by **Myopic Void** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:18 pm

They sound killer on your clips, Eric, if that's what you're using. I think I just lean towards mics with a little bit of "flattering" coloration like the 414 TL II I mentioned earlier.

I have used the U87 on some of the clips...or a combo of U87 and Royer 121.

It's much easier to get the Royer in the sweet spot..it takes a lot longer with the U87 to get it where you get the bottom like the Royer and the bite like a Shure. The Royer tends to be too dark sometimes and you need the U87 or Shure to open it up with certain amps. Given enough time with mic placement and tweaking the U87 can cover it but it's harder.

Honestly mic placement with Marshalls is a b$%ch sometimes. The mics are also really fussy about what mic-pre they like, at least mine are. The Royer hates the Neves IME and loves the Millenia or Ampex 350 mic-pre (which is where it is patched in at now and will stay) Royer 121- with Ampex 350 Tube-Pre = Goodness!

The U87 loves the Api-pre better than the Neves. That's were it stays U87+API. The Royer is grittier with the API. It 's interesting exercise for sure!

Eric, did you ever make any recordings of the Hiwatt restoration?

Stay tuned Pete as I have something I think you in particular are really going to trip out on...I can't give any details now but the official unveiling will be in two weeks.

Cheers,

Eric

NitroLiq · Post by **NitroLiq** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:01 pm

Myopic Void wrote:
Eric, did you ever make any recordings of the Hiwatt restoration?
Stay tuned Pete as I have something I think you in particular are really going to trip out on...I can't give any details now but the official unveiling will be in two weeks.

Cheers,

Eric

Nice, looking forward to it. Your friend emailed me a few times last month..I got him squared away with the panel/serial plate files and BNP. Said he would send photos when it's finished. Brianh (on this forum) just finished his also using my plates and the same chassis...thing looks gorgeous...has a few minor issues that mark huss tried helping him sort out with a scope but no luck. They think it might be the filter caps he used so he's going to try replacing them. Hopefully, all will be well. I should get the chance to play it in a couple weeks if it's fixed (local gathering at space we can crank in).

Back to mics, it looks like there's a similar "which mic for guitar recording?" question at TGP (minus the low volume bit):

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... p?t=311652

I don't know how much stock to put in what they say as that place gets very "harmony-central" a lot of the time but they mentioned a couple mics that might be worth looking into in the budget range:

Cascade Fathead (ribbon $169)
Heil PR30

Myopic Void · Post by **Myopic Void** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:02 pm

NitroLiq wrote:
Myopic Void wrote:
Eric, did you ever make any recordings of the Hiwatt restoration?
Stay tuned Pete as I have something I think you in particular are really going to trip out on...I can't give any details now but the official unveiling will be in two weeks.

Cheers,

Eric
Nice, looking forward to it. Your friend emailed me a few times last month..I got him squared away with the panel/serial plate files and BNP. Said he would send photos when it's finished. Brianh (on this forum) just finished his also using my plates and the same chassis...thing looks gorgeous...has a few minor issues that mark huss tried helping him sort out with a scope but no luck. They think it might be the filter caps he used so he's going to try replacing them. Hopefully, all will be well. I should get the chance to play it in a couple weeks if it's fixed (local gathering at space we can crank in).

Back to mics, it looks like there's a similar "which mic for guitar recording?" question at TGP (minus the low volume bit):

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... p?t=311652

I don't know how much stock to put in what they say as that place gets very "harmony-central" a lot of the time but they mentioned a couple mics that might be worth looking into in the budget range:

Cascade Fathead (ribbon $169)
Heil PR30

Thanks for helping him

. Yes I did see BrianH's amp. Very Nice indeed! Perhaps he should move the wires around with a plastic pen while he plays... "carefully" of course. This has helped me in the past. If he used the high end F&T German caps they should good i would think.

I mentioned above I just started using the Royer with a recently acquired Ampex 350 tube mic-pre. There is a new clip of it in the sound clips section. It's titled "Rave up in Nine"...give it a listen and see what you think.

Cheers,

Eric

NitroLiq · Post by **NitroLiq** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:19 pm

I listened to it over the weekend (putfile is blocked at work). Sounded really good. You and your zep-isms.

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:59 pm

I think a nice condensor might be called for. Not too expensive. Im just worried about the sensativity because at low volumes the backround noise might kill me. But thats a problem with 57s too. I hate close micing so that makes it worse. I never heard a tone I liked that came from micing ont he grill.

St August · Post by **St August** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:05 pm

I always use a second mic about 2 ft back with a close up 57.Its a Rode NT-5
It does a great job. it picks up some of the room but not alot since its directional.. so that might be a idea.

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Low volume micing

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