more VH1 studio analysis w/clips

[YMI5150?]

to contribute to that first album tone cause, i started studying studio compression. i've always struggled with getting that left side out of your face. i was on a wild goose chase trying to wet it out with a tad of reverb, which it does need. but there was something just not right IMO.

here are two identical clips, first with the exact setup I've always used. dig a bit if you're new. 12 series dimed, slaved, 1300, etc...

second clip is adding some post process compression. personally, i think its the missing ingredient to get really close. Make sure you're evaluating with some decent buds or stereo.

pardon the usual flubs, etc. this isnt my day job...

rock on!

Uncompressed
http://www.soundclick.com/player/single ... 80092&q=hi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Compressed
http://www.soundclick.com/player/single ... 80091&q=hi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[jnew]

There's no question about some post compression going on w/Ed's early albums. In your case, you definitely have some hard biting highs going on with that amp. I think that needs to be dialed a bit and you would be closer, even without the compression Just my opinion of course.

[YMI5150?]

appreciate the feedback. i agree, especially on jamie's cryin. i dont think its the amp, its either the blackback or the mic placement might need to be nudged a bit more outside. the room is very rounded. might go back and try micing one of the pre rola drivers.

[vanhalen5150]

Are you able to move the mic around in real time and listen to its placement?

[YMI5150?]

Yes, good idea

[rgorke]

One thing that seems illusive to me and what I hear on many clips is that Ed's chords and notes seem to bloom. Especially listen to the RWTD iso tracks. The chords expand and blossom before any decay, its a special kind of of sustain.

That being said, you are getting very close. It is more than the just the mids, crisp top end and tight yet saggy low end, that sustain is the hard part.

[Strat78]

I just don't hear a drastic tone shaping difference here, the eq does not change the core tone coming from the amp, no EQ can do that. Things were done at the mixing board of course, but subtly. Roberts latest compressor build is intriguing especially what the release knob does. Listen to the opening of ATBL, there is a nice afterglow (or bloom) to the low notes and I don't think it's from just the reverb, that's a compressor! Other effects I hear are bass being pumped in like the first few bars of ITO, and then backed off when the drums come in. I still don't believe Ed's first album tone was created by Ted and Don, it was mixed in a way that was beautiful but we are basically still hearing how the amp was performing.
I think it still comes down to that damn variac, but forget 90v, that is a diversion. It's much lower than that, even Ed admitted recently that he turned it down to 50v back then. The problem is (like rgalprin discovered), once you get that low, the tone is pretty cool, but anemic. This is where goosing the front end becomes relevant. This is where you start testing pickups and adjusting sliders on the mxr or GE-10 EQ's. Our builds are totally there, we are just not running them right, and I think it has been right in front of our face the whole time. No slaving, no master and no attenuation, because that particular sizzle and squish does not seem to come from doing those things alone with a 12xxx dimed. Sorry, I can't back this up with clips yet. I spent a month trying to debug my amp after replacing the OT, only to discover that I was running my bias at 2.5mv instead of 2.5 volts. Opioids and amp building don't mix. Incidentally, have you guys ever noticed how the dubbed solo at the end of ICM is the same tone as the second album.

[jnew]

Good stuff Strat78. I've wondered about the variac voltage setting as well. I'm going to re-bias at 80VAC today and see how that goes. When I first got it and set it all up at 90VAC, I thought "WOW", that was too simple. Lower might even be better. Thinking Women and Children First here. Some of that stuff was sick and sounds like the amp was just wilting but in a bad ass, wicked way.

[YMI5150?]

awesome stuff here. only problem is now I'll be completely ineffective at work, wishing i could run home and try these things. only problem for me is i need that effects loop to get the verb. Eric's got a good plugin for his rig, and just acquired a variac so maybe he can give this a try as well.

[Tone Slinger]

I like it Kev,totally close to VH1 album .

Interesting stuff from Strat78 there. At least the can can get kicked a little further up (or down) the road. Too low voltages really takes ALOT away from the amp,makes it into less of an amp and more of a by-stander. Pushing that the right way up front would definately yield better results than without though

[YMI5150?]

for me, the compression was key to getting the track out of your face. i still need to tame the highs but its getting there. dont expect to ever be able to replace sunset and fantastic engineering with software and a laptop but its fun to chase.

VAC was around 90. will shave a bit more but agree that too much may not be the right direction. will look forward to Phil getting his clips up to help figure this out.

[rgorke]

I just don't hear a drastic tone shaping difference here, the eq does not change the core tone coming from the amp, no EQ can do that. Things were done at the mixing board of course, but subtly. Roberts latest compressor build is intriguing especially what the release knob does. Listen to the opening of ATBL, there is a nice afterglow (or bloom) to the low notes and I don't think it's from just the reverb, that's a compressor! Other effects I hear are bass being pumped in like the first few bars of ITO, and then backed off when the drums come in. I still don't believe Ed's first album tone was created by Ted and Don, it was mixed in a way that was beautiful but we are basically still hearing how the amp was performing.
I think it still comes down to that damn variac, but forget 90v, that is a diversion. It's much lower than that, even Ed admitted recently that he turned it down to 50v back then. The problem is (like rgalprin discovered), once you get that low, the tone is pretty cool, but anemic. This is where goosing the front end becomes relevant. This is where you start testing pickups and adjusting sliders on the mxr or GE-10 EQ's. Our builds are totally there, we are just not running them right, and I think it has been right in front of our face the whole time. No slaving, no master and no attenuation, because that particular sizzle and squish does not seem to come from doing those things alone with a 12xxx dimed. Sorry, I can't back this up with clips yet. I spent a month trying to debug my amp after replacing the OT, only to discover that I was running my bias at 2.5mv instead of 2.5 volts. Opioids and amp building don't mix. Incidentally, have you guys ever noticed how the dubbed solo at the end of ICM is the same tone as the second album.

Lots of similar thoughts in my mind as well.....It is a "how" not a "what". How the amp was run, not what is the spec. I have had my variac at around 70 volts for a while...not only does that help with volume, it adds a thickness and sag. Also, using the MXR A LOT more these days. It really helps the lower output pickups, yes, even a '59, hold together and get that sizzle. I have it set, not so much a frown, but like the Matterhorn, with the 800 hz the peak.

[efraser68]

Tones sound great here Kevin. Interesting points Phil made and I'll take my variac down a bit and see if I can clip it soon. Wondering if this will cause any harm to the amp as I don't want to have to rebias to do any adjustment to run the variac at around 70VAC if I don't plan to gig the amp with a variac.

What's the verdict on running the 12 series dimed, attenuated, but not readjusting the amp for a variac

[jnew]

Not sure but I think it would just be biased colder and colder as you lowered the voltage. Safe? I just always bias to the voltage I'm running it at to be safe.
Today I took my variac down to 85VAC (from normal 90VAC that I normally run). Amp seems to sag just a tad more and shift in tone to maybe a hair darker. I don't know about you guys but with my OPT Trannie on 8 ohms, into a 20 load box and variac'd down to 85-90 VAC, there's like NO headroom and this thing saturates and sustains really early on. Nowhere near 10 on the volume as it's just too much. 6 or 7 and this thing is singing.

[Star*Guitar]

I think the compression really smoothed out the rough edges and excessive fuzziness. The raspy-ness is gone yielding to a much smoother grind. Very interesting. Also I think Strat78 has in some ways picked up where Rockstah left off. Its that kind of mad experimentation that makes this a fun place to be.