Ed's Echoplex

[leadguy]

I've been thinking about this for a while and I'm still trying to pinpoint dates and I can't be 100% accurate but here goes.

Ed seems to have bought his EP-3 in early 1977 new, because of the wide "Maestro Echoplex" logo on his Echoplex.
From the few photos we have, Ed had the newer wide "Maestro Echoplex" logo on his Echoplex in the end of May 1977 Mumps photo so obviously he bought it before then.

The previous Echoplexes just had a smaller Maestro logo.

The EP-4 was introduced around early 1977 and I think these EP-4's were the main reason for the new wide "Maestro Echoplex" logo and the EP-3's also got the new wide "Maestro Echoplex" logo at the same time as the EP-4.

They were selling EP-3's and EP-4's together for a while.

What's interesting about the EP-4 and EP-3 in early 1977 when it seems that Ed bought his EP-3 is that the EP-4 and also the EP-3 had compressor boards installed for a while.

These Echoplex compressor board circuits are based on an engineer hooking up a compressor stompbox to the Echoplex record circuit for testing purposes.

The compressor stompbox that was used looks to have been a MXR Dyna-Comp judging from the Echoplex Compressor board schematic because the Echoplex Compressor board and the MXR Dyna-Comp schematics are just about identical, same chip etc.
The Echoplex compressors output setting is adjusted by a trim pot and the sensitivity value is fixed to a certain setting.

The compressor boards were apparently incorrectly installed (maybe) and the compression ended up not just on the Echoplex wet record signal but also on the Echoplex dry signal due to a misunderstanding of the engineers plans.
After the EP-3's and EP-4's had been shipped with the compressor for a while, the compressor board being installed on the dry signal mistake was realized and the engineer tried to have the compressor installed just on the record wet signal for further Echoplexes but I think the Echoplex owner lost interest and scrapped it.

Ed seems to have bought his EP-3 Echoplex around the time when they were being sold with compressor boards and these EP-3 Echoplexes are really EP-3 Echoplexes with a MXR Dyna-Comp installed probably at the input.

Also it seems like the chicken knob EP-3's with the wider B&W "Maestro Echoplex" logos stand a good chance of being compressor board EP-3's because the chicken knobs changed to the other design knobs sometime in 1977 (going by the 1977 Echoplex ad) and the wider B&W "Maestro Echoplex" logo comes in in late 1976/early 1977, so the chicken knob wider B&W "Maestro Echoplex" logo EP-3's would be the late 1976/early 1977 EP-3's that were coming with compressor boards.

Ed's EP-3's are the chicken knob wider B&W "Maestro Echoplex" logo EP-3's.

1: Ed has a wider B&W "Maestro Echoplex" logo EP-3 that was introduced in late 1976/early 1977.

2: Ed's EP-3(s) have the earlier chicken knobs and the newer wider B&W "Maestro Echoplex" logo dating Ed's EP-3's to late 1976/early 1977 EP-3's.

3: Compressor boards were being installed in the late 1976/early 1977 EP-3's and also in the newly introduced late 1976/early 1977 EP-4's.

4: Ed buys his wider B&W "Maestro Echoplex" logo EP-3(s) new sometime in early 1977.


So there it is, maybe something in it.
Whether someone thinks Ed had a compressor board EP-3 or not depends on their ears I suppose.

This dude has a EP-3 with a compressor board.

It has the extra compressor board on the top of the other boards.

It's a EP-3 with a older smaller Maestro logo that is before the 1977 logo change to a wider "Maestro Echoplex" logo and seeing that the compressor boards were mostly installed in the newer wider "Maestro Echoplex" logo EP-3's and EP-4's in 1977, this compressor board EP-3 with the older smaller Maestro logo must be pretty close to when the logo change happened in late 1976/early 1977, so I'm guessing it's from late 1976 just before the logo change.

Ed's early 1977 EP-3(s) are the wider"Maestro Echoplex" logo EP-3's when they had compressor boards installed.

He gives a bit of a clean demo of it in part 1 and at the end of part 2.

Don't know about anyone else, but to me it sounds pretty good with the compressor board, so I don't really know why some dudes around the net would want to remove the compressor board.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWpj85HN7H4[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5uH6y7yWOI[/youtube]

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The Echoplex logos are in the Echoplex Ads from various years.

The Echoplexes with just a small Maestro logo are pre 1977.

The Echoplexes with a wider "Maestro Echoplex" logo are from 1977 and 1978.

The Echoplexes with just a small "Echoplex" logo are from 1979 until the end of the Echoplexes.

Ed's Echoplexes have the wider "Maestro Echoplex" logo that seems to have been introduced with the release of the Echoplex EP-4 model around early 1977 and the EP-3 model also seemed to change to the wider "Maestro Echoplex" at the same time to be in line with the new wider "Maestro Echoplex" logo that the EP-4 had.

Both the EP-3 and EP-4 models were fitted with compressor boards around the time that the EP-4 was introduced and this also seems to be the time when the EP-3 logo switched to the wider "Maestro Echoplex" logo.

So Ed could have bought his EP-3's new and at around the time when they were being fitted with compressor boards as Ed already has a wider "Maestro Echoplex" logo Echoplex in the end of May 1977 Mumps Whisky photo.

End of May 1977 Mumps Whisky photo with Ed's Echoplex having the wider "Echoplex Maestro" logo



Ed's Echoplex with wider "Echoplex Maestro" logo



Small "Maestro" logo





Wider "Maestro Echoplex" logo



Later small "Echoplex" logo



Echoplex 1972 Ad



Echoplex 1973 Ad



Echoplex 1975 Ad



1976 Echoplex with the smaller Maestro logo that this dude bought new in 1976.
The logo change to the wider B&W "Echoplex Maestro" logo had not happened yet.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R651lfBhngo[/youtube]

This is the 1977 Ed logo change.

The EP-4 was introduced with the new wider B&W "Echoplex Maestro" logo change in late 1976/early 1977 and had compressor boards.
The EP-3 was also installed with compressor boards at the same time as the EP-4 and some older smaller "Maestro" logo EP-3 backstock got the compressor board installed for sale in 1977 (EP-3 older logo older stock transition period to newer logo, EP-4 has no transition period and is introduced with the new logo) but the EP-3 generally changes to a wider "Echoplex Maestro" logo in late 1976/early 1977 exactly the same as the EP-4 and this is Ed's early 1977 EP-3 wider "Echoplex Maestro" logo.

Chicken knobs are used on the early wider B&W "Echoplex Maestro" logo EP-3's and EP-4's in late 1976/early 1977 (compressor board EP-3's and EP-4's) and then they change the knobs to a new design sometime in 1977 (see Echoplex 1977 ad).

Ed's EP-3's have chicken knobs and the new wider B&W "Echoplex Maestro" logo indicating that Ed's EP-3's are from late 1976/early 1977 and this was when the compressor boards were being installed into EP-3's and EP-4's.

"EP-4 (late 70s): Around 1976-’77, the Market Electronics/Norlin team introduced another model, without S.O.S., but having bass and treble controls for the echo signal."

http://www.vintageguitar.com/1964/echoplex/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Echoplex 1977 Ad



Echoplex 1978 Ad



Echoplex 1979 Ad

[Santi]

Eddie talks a lot about compression in the video of the 5150III. He was also taking the Ep-3 wherever he was going.
I suggested some time ago that the Ep-3 had something done and was used as a booster.
What you just said actually explain why Ed always had the Ep-3 with him...

[dazzlindino]

Now I need another vintage pedal...holybatman!!!
My ep-3 does squat as to adding any gain whatsoever, maybe this is why?

[redozzman]

thats some good detective work, however, from the photos that were shot from the Japanese tour, Eds units looked like older ones with the grey face panels which I thought were earlier versions of the ep3, I have a grey and a black face unit neither have the compressor board, one is an early 70's model (grey) and one is a 77(black). When was the compressor circuit introduced? I don't want to have to go find one of these units!!!!!!!

[popskull]

Does the compressor board look like something out of a foot pedal?? I mean What does it look like?? I would like to look in my EP-3 and see if Ive got one..

[leadguy]

Seems like Ed had another Echoplex version before 1977, maybe a EP2 or EP1 or maybe even a EP3 with the small Maestro logo but I think he had a EP2 or EP1 and bought his EP-3 with the wide "Maestro Echoplex" logo in early 1977.

I have found a EP3 Echoplex with serial number around 25xxx with 1977 dated pots with the compressor board installed.

So the EP3's with the compressor board are coming from around when the EP4 was launched with compressor boards in early 1977 when Ed seems to have bought his EP3 judging by logo dating.

Also both of Ed's EP3 Echoplexes have the wide "Maestro Echoplex" logo.

This is the pre 1977 EP3 small Maestro logo



This is the 1977 EP4 and EP3 wide "Maestro Echoplex" logo introduced with the EP4 in 1977.
At the time of the EP4 introduction, the EP4 and EP3 had compressor boards installed.

EP4





EP3





Ed's Echoplex EP3 wide "Maestro Echoplex" logo.



The Echoplex compressor board.



The Echoplex compressor board in a Echoplex EP3



A Echoplex EP3 without a compressor board.



The Echoplex compressor board schematic and the MXR Dyna-Comp (vintage or 76 reissue) schematic with both using a CA3080 chip.






The story of the compressor board http://www.vintageguitar.com/1964/echoplex/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"EP-4 (late 70s): Around 1976-’77, the Market Electronics/Norlin team introduced another model, without S.O.S., but having bass and treble controls for the echo signal. The four-segment LED recording level meter, a control panel-mounted record level knob and separate microphone input and PA mixer output jacks were other new additions. The EP-3 and 4 were offered concurrently and at the same price ($489.95) in the late ’70s, but C.M.I. may have been unloading old EP-3 stock.
Mike Battle claims he was not involved in the EP-4 and sites a few problems in the design. One involved adding a noise gate that could be heard cutting the signal off as it approached full decay. Both Dixon (who was not involved in the testing of this model) and Clay (who turned his EP-2 in for a brand new EP-4) have proclaimed their distaste for this feature.
Another post-Battle failure in the first EP-4s involved Don Dixon suggesting a compressor be added to the record section so a stronger average signal would yield less distortion from peaks and therefore, a higher signal-to-noise ratio. He had the company’s engineers hook up an inexpensive stompbox into the signal path leading to the record head and the results were reportedly a noticeable reduction in tape hiss. Unfortunately, the finished unit was rushed into production without Dixon testing it. The compressor had been added to the entire signal – wet and dry – causing a furor from players. The units had to be recalled and the compressors removed, bringing an end to Dixon’s “improvement.” Although he tried to explain they went about it the wrong way, his idea was dismissed by soured management. This “new and improved” model marked the beginning of the end for the Echoplex."

[wjamflan]

Nice work. I guess now we'll need to invest in a soon-to-come EP Dyna-pre pedal....

[leadguy]

Thanks.

Looks like Ed could have had the compressor board EP-3 Echoplex judging by when he was likely to have bought it.

Some things to think about are

Why would Ed buy the newer wide "Maestro Echoplex" logo Echoplex new and not just buy only one but he ended up buying 2 "Maestro Echoplex" logo Echoplexes for a matching pair.

There would have been used EP3 Echoplexes around from the early/mid 1970s with just the small "Maestro" logo that would have been cheaper.

The new Echoplex's were not that cheap either and were going for around $500 in 1977 and Ed's wide Maestro Echoplex" logo Echoplexes would have been bought new because they were just released in early 1977.

"The EP-3 and 4 were offered concurrently and at the same price ($489.95) in the late ’70s"

Why would Ed change from the Echoplex that he was using through 1976 that was on the Gene Simmons demos for example and it might have been a tube EP2 or EP1 Echoplex as well.

Some people have noticed a change between Ed's more standard Marshall 1976 tones and the 1977 tones which are more like the so called Brown Sound and I have thought in the past that what might be a part of this was the variac and how the variac could add more compression and sustain but the variac can only do so much compression and sustain compared to a compressor circuit.
The main difference that I can hear between 1976 boots and 1977 boots is the dynamics and sustain, with 1976 being more conventional.
The 1977 dynamics are more flattened out with more sustain to my ears.

[spaceace76]

It's interesting how close the Dynacomp is to the Echoplex compressor. I've heard of the compressor board but didn't know they were so close.

the schematics aren't very clear on how it sits in the circuit. are we to assume that from the record level pot, (point 20 on the schematic) there is a bare wire running to the input of the compressor board, and the red output wire goes the the record head? so essentially, you can run an EP-3 based preamp circuit into a dynacomp (or EP-3 dynacomp variation), place them wherever you think Ed has his EP's in the chain, and reproduce this effect on his signal?

I'm heading back to wjamflam's post on Ed's progressing sound, to see if I can hear a difference in terms of compression and signal stability, especially during echo'd parts

[leadguy]

Yes, I think it's pretty obvious what compressor stompbox Don Dixon hooked up to the Echoplex for testing how compression would result on the wet record signal.

The actual compressor board apparently got hooked up on the dry and wet signal path instead of just the wet signal path.

Whether the compressor board is in front of the FET preamp or just after it, I'm not that sure about.
I would guess that the compressor board is hooked up just after the FET preamp.

Going back and listening to the RAW VH1 RWTD 2 tracks and then listening to the Gene Simmons RWTD and a RWTD boot from the 29th May 1976, I hear less compression and sustain on the Gene Simmons RWTD and RWTD boot from the 29th May 1976 and the pick flick muting in the main riff is much weaker on the Gene Simmons RWTD and RWTD boot from the 29th May 1976.

I have never heard anyone get near the VH1 pick flick muting in the main riff, it's very distinctive and sounds like a result from compression to me.

Also the Gene Simmons RWTD and RWTD boot from the 29th May 1976 are done with a different Echoplex to the Echoplex Ed is using in 1977 because Ed's wider "Maestro Echoplex" logo EP3 was not around in mid 1976 from what I can work out.

Going back to the VH1 Eruption, it does sound compressed with the level and how the notes are flowing into each other and their dynamics and level.

If this is right, then it's some compression and boost in tandem with the FET and a stock Plexi with stock Plexi dynamics.
The Plexi dynamics are still there, but would be modified by the compression somewhat.

Of course I'm just using my ears with the RWTD versions and could be wrong, but I suspect that Ed has the EP3 with the compressor board.
He probably tried the new 1977 Echoplex and liked it enough to pay near $500 for it and then ditched his old Echoplex and then also liked it enough to buy another one as well for another near $500.

There is hardly any circuit differences between the small early/mid 70s Maestro logo EP3's and the wider "Maestro Echoplex" logo EP3's without a compressor board, they both have no FET bypass cap.
The first versions of the EP3 have a FET bypass cap giving a bit more gain but not that much.
So Ed could have bought a small early/mid 70s Maestro logo EP3 at a used price but he buys the new Echoplex EP3 at the time when they have compressor boards and he already had a Echoplex anyway, maybe a EP2, Hmmmmmmmmmm!.

[spaceace76]

well i don't want to get too speculative here, but this is starting to make sense. I've always noticed that many of the things Ed pioneered turned out to be solid ideas for "shredders" or anyone who plays with lots of speed and gain the way he does. compression is a good thing for this sort of sound and playing, it hides mistakes to a certain extent, and produces a more consistent signal without need for extra precision from the player. compressors impart a large number of qualities that people attribute to Ed's tone

Ed already took out the tone control, added a high output pickup, and threw EQ's into his chain. I'd say he was going for stronger signal hitting the amp (without boost pedals) and when he heard how the newest EP-3 affected his sound he bought 2 despite the older models probably being cheaper and distributors looking to dump them for the new line.

and the compression is VERY heavy on VH1. most of it sounds like the studio's compressor, but it sounds like something is happening in front of the amp too. the live boots back that up to an extent

that would be something wouldn't it? all these years and people were just using the wrong MXR pedal

[leadguy]

I stumbled across all of this while I was trying to date my Echoplex EP4.
I wasn't really trying to find any link to Ed at all (if there is a link that turns out pretty right).

btw the CA3080 chip has apparently been discontinued for a while and the recent MXR Dyna-Comp's use a different chip/chips from what I've read.
Only the vintage MXR Dyna-Comps and the MXR Dyna-Comp 76 reissue have the CA3080 chip as far as I know.

Compression after recording and compression in the signal chain are going to have different effects.

The RWTD VH 2 raw tracks are just Ed's cab mics tracks with no reverb.

How much compression Ted Templeman would put on the raw tracks I don't know but I wouldn't be surprised if there was none because these are just raw recordings straight from the mics and they would get processed later with overall compression, EQing. reverb etc for the mixdown IMO.

If there is no compression put on by Ted on the 2 raw tracks then I can hear compression effects on them and it would then really have to be in the signal chain but once again I'm only using my ears and they might not be accurate.
I also do not think that the way the amp is leveling out with a lot of sustain and the way Ed's muted pick flicks end up sounding, that this is really after the recording compression, it's more like the compressor being in the signal chain compression to me.

[Santi]

well Leadguy, I'd say you've done an amazing job here... Now Eddie will be pissed off with you cos' as he always says " I was plugging straight into the amp"

[wjamflan]

Questions for those who can read the schematic and tell:

1. Does the schem tell you what Output and Sensitivity settings were used on the Dynacomp?

2. Were the settings adjustable?

3. If not, any guesses at the settings?

Thanks.

Bill

[leadguy]

Good question.

The Sensitivity pot on the MXR Dyna-Comp is apparently a reverse log pot.

Looking at the Echoplex compressor's fixed sensitivity resistance value and adapting it's value to the MXR's variable sensitivity reverse log pot, it seems like the Echoplex compressor is set equivalent to around the MXR's Dyna-Comp sensitivity pot being turned up to half way but this is only an educated guess.

The Echoplex compressor boards output level is set by a trim pot and the output being turned up to halfway on the MXR Dyna-Comp would be a good place to start I would think.