Franky's P.A.F ?

nitro · Post by **nitro** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:54 pm

I played the replica franky at guitar center arlington heights and i thought it played well but it lacked openess, to me the pickup didnt sound right,the reason what i know about the early van halen sound is because of my persistent drive to find out about how ED achieved that tone, in the 70s when i first heard van halen 1,i cant tell you how many times i called california and talked to people such as amp techs(jose arrendondo)Eds first tech (rudy leiran) dave anderson who was very good friends with the van halen brothers,sound people who worked at the whiskey and also gazzaris(those are the clubs van halen played at)wayne charvel we all know who wayne is,karl sandoval who worked for wayne and made and painted the black and yellow strat for ed(van halen II album)grover jackson(ed didnt like)lynn ellsworth who started boogie bodies and made necks for ed,i host of other people to much to list,but anyway thanks for your time.............

MARCO · Post by **MARCO** » Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:52 pm

Nitro, what are you saying?? What did you try the Frankie on, what amp or amps for that matter?? I tried it on a few amps and AB'd it against my guitar and my thing was it sounded more true to the original than my axe and I had a Hard Ash w/ a EVH 78 in there. I was literally on it for almost 2 hours. I guess to each his own but when I confirmed the pickup info I guess I am left scratching my head about the whole thing.....

nitro · Post by **nitro** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:16 am

the only amp that was convincing was a JCM800 they had a EVH5150 III but to me thats not a real amp for the early van halen I sound.

JD · Post by JD » Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:23 am

In general I am seeing what I believe is people not understanding pickup resistance.

Pickup resistance means *nothing* if you don't know the wire gauge and exact copper compositon (I'll leave out coating, winding tension, and a couple of other subtle factors). If a pickup is 42AWG wire, then 8K is about normal. However, if you go down to 43 or 44AWG and the total resistance is higher, that is a COMPLETELY different pickup than overwinding 42AWG to the same resistance. Seymour Duncan somewhere on his website explains this and the optimum # of winds and DC resistance for the given wire.

Here's where the hybrid shines, and why I believe Ed used a Hybrid of 42 and 43 AWG coils (wound to their respective "optimal" resistance respectively). A straight PAF generally speaking is too thin for Ed's sound. Likewise, a straight 43 or 44 AWG pickup, like a Custom Custom, is just too dark and heavy. That hybrid is right in between, and something really interesting happens when this pickup is driven hard. I'm telling you guys, before you dismiss it, this is *THE* early EVH pickup IMO. Play with one, swap an AIII or AIV magnet in for an AII or AV until you get it just right, but there's no question in my mind that if you really understand how pickups are made and have acutally tried tons of pickups, and not just going on heresay or what someone else wrote on the internet, you will easily conclude that this is almost certainly the pickup. Period.

Mr. Beasty · Post by **Mr. Beasty** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:55 am

JD wrote:In general I am seeing what I believe is people not understanding pickup resistance.

Pickup resistance means *nothing* if you don't know the wire gauge and exact copper compositon (I'll leave out coating, winding tension, and a couple of other subtle factors). If a pickup is 42AWG wire, then 8K is about normal. However, if you go down to 43 or 44AWG and the total resistance is higher, that is a COMPLETELY different pickup than overwinding 42AWG to the same resistance. Seymour Duncan somewhere on his website explains this and the optimum # of winds and DC resistance for the given wire.

Granted!

JD wrote:Here's where the hybrid shines, and why I believe Ed used a Hybrid of 42 and 43 AWG coils (wound to their respective "optimal" resistance respectively). A straight PAF generally speaking is too thin for Ed's sound. Likewise, a straight 43 or 44 AWG pickup, like a Custom Custom, is just too dark and heavy. That hybrid is right in between, and something really interesting happens when this pickup is driven hard. I'm telling you guys, before you dismiss it, this is *THE* early EVH pickup IMO. Play with one, swap an AIII or AIV magnet in for an AII or AV until you get it just right, but there's no question in my mind that if you really understand how pickups are made and have acutally tried tons of pickups, and not just going on heresay or what someone else wrote on the internet, you will easily conclude that this is almost certainly the pickup. Period.

What you describe is the famous hybrid Custom-Custom/'59 that a lot of people like so much, isn't it?!

My personal favorite is the Bareknuckle VHII which is a A5 magnet w/ assymetrical bobins and rates at 9K.

Strat78 · Post by **Strat78** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:55 am

JD wrote:In general I am seeing what I believe is people not understanding pickup resistance.

Pickup resistance means *nothing* if you don't know the wire gauge and exact copper compositon (I'll leave out coating, winding tension, and a couple of other subtle factors). If a pickup is 42AWG wire, then 8K is about normal. However, if you go down to 43 or 44AWG and the total resistance is higher, that is a COMPLETELY different pickup than overwinding 42AWG to the same resistance. Seymour Duncan somewhere on his website explains this and the optimum # of winds and DC resistance for the given wire.

Here's where the hybrid shines, and why I believe Ed used a Hybrid of 42 and 43 AWG coils (wound to their respective "optimal" resistance respectively). A straight PAF generally speaking is too thin for Ed's sound. Likewise, a straight 43 or 44 AWG pickup, like a Custom Custom, is just too dark and heavy. That hybrid is right in between, and something really interesting happens when this pickup is driven hard. I'm telling you guys, before you dismiss it, this is *THE* early EVH pickup IMO. Play with one, swap an AIII or AIV magnet in for an AII or AV until you get it just right, but there's no question in my mind that if you really understand how pickups are made and have acutally tried tons of pickups, and not just going on heresay or what someone else wrote on the internet, you will easily conclude that this is almost certainly the pickup. Period.

Very intriguing,are there any sound clips of that hybrid. Does anybody know what gauge the old Ibanez Super 70 pickups had in them. They are usually at around 7.75 to 7.90k range with alnico 8 mags.

Mr. Beasty · Post by **Mr. Beasty** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:04 am

Ed used several Dimarzio pick-ups at various times in the Shark guitar and the Frankenstrat ... but they would be completly different beast from the modded-PAF we are discussing here.

BTW- it is likely Ed tinkered with those too ...

nitro · Post by **nitro** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:13 am

Thats very true dc resistance doesnt tell you how i pickup sounds,i learned that from steve blucher at dimarzio many years ago.

MARCO · Post by **MARCO** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:22 am

I like what JD and Beasty said because I am now learning more about the technical side of things. Hey, all I am telling you is fact about the replica pickup, I am sure they would disagree with Nitro but hey, it is what it is right? You guys got me curious about the Hybrid which I am going to try BUT who makes them (besides Frankenstraat) and let's hears some clips so I can get a general idea of how they sound. I appreciate the info from everyone but the focal point was to share my "truth" so people had a starting point and can go from there with their own conclusions.
HYBRID info anyone??

nitro · Post by **nitro** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:25 am

Here we go again with the hybrid BS...........BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT.

MARCO · Post by **MARCO** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:31 am

Nitro I am curious about it.....are you saying its not what its cracked up to be?? I am aksing in a constructive way because I feel like the EVH 78' isnt cutting it after I played the Frankie so tell me what you think is a good pickup for that old sound.

nitro · Post by **nitro** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:02 pm

original paf or duncan 59,dimarzio paf..................

JD · Post by JD » Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:41 pm

nitro wrote:Here we go again with the hybrid BS...........BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT.

BS? How certain are you of that statement? Based on a bunch of heresay???

Nobody (but Ed himself) knows for certain what Ed used. He did the customizations himself! It was most likely based on an original ES-335 PAF that Ed may or may not have modified and/or switched out completely at some point. He deliberately keeps *everyone* in the dark about this pickup, my guess is so nobody will copy it exactly. Sure, there are quite a few pickups that will get you very close, but that is dependent on the guitar, amp, speakers, and technique.

I say build a hybrid (42 + 43 AWG) humbucker and try it before you start slamming it. I did. Play with different magnets and different guitars. Make sure you have the amp and speakers. Then post back. Regurgitating heresay and internet rumors is a waste of time.

nitro · Post by **nitro** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:02 pm

What customization, that right there is BS,ed took i paf pickup out of a 1961 gibson es 335 and put it in the franky,thats it,do you think ed knew about pickup wire and rewinding pickups at that time,i dont think so,no one heard about the hybrid pickup in the late 70s,it was made up BS by someone.Believe me ive done alot of trial and error.The pickup is just part of eds sound......

sadwings75 · Post by **sadwings75** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:06 pm

JD wrote:
nitro wrote:Here we go again with the hybrid BS...........BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT.
BS? How certain are you of that statement? Based on a bunch of heresay???

Nobody (but Ed himself) knows for certain what Ed used. He did the customizations himself! It was most likely based on an original ES-335 PAF that Ed may or may not have modified and/or switched out completely at some point. He deliberately keeps *everyone* in the dark about this pickup, my guess is so nobody will copy it exactly. Sure, there are quite a few pickups that will get you very close, but that is dependent on the guitar, amp, speakers, and technique.

I say build a hybrid (42 + 43 AWG) humbucker and try it before you start slamming it. I did. Play with different magnets and different guitars. Make sure you have the amp and speakers. Then post back. Regurgitating heresay and internet rumors is a waste of time.

I agree with you; I made a hybrid and tried different configurations with the coils and magnets and found that it was a good sound and that I did like it, but at the same time it helped me to realize that I prefer a lower output pickup. I would not know any of this for sure if I had not made one myself and tried it out in my guitars. Anyone with decent soldering skills is capable of making a hybrid. Experimentation pays, and its through that that breakthroughs are made.
http://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/show ... ght=hybrid