The secret EVH amp part

[dirtycooter]

Here is my take
I agree alot here. Old school is getting lost in all this new stuff out there and while it makes life easier, it kills something along the way as well the old boys knew very well.
Metallica with the Boogie thing killed old school tone.
And its not that their sound at the time they were using boogies was bad-it fit that stuff perfect!
I grew up on all their stuff. But how many boogie using bands sound similar to them?

Then..... I started liking VH more though I had always heard them all those same years.
I began to dig deeper into their tone.
One day I stumbled across Vic Mason's Mojave Peacemaker clips. Huge tone with MIDRANGE in it. Nobody was marketing a handwired true rock sound at the time gotten the hard way. It was glorious! Wtf had I overlooked all these years? What was I missing out on? How did Ed make his so ballsy? And here I am today and have heard things that surpass that peacemaker clips right here. And even today those peacemaker clips now sound too bottom heavy for me really. But I found that fat midrange punch and tight thump by turnin down the bass finally and getting the best tones I ever had.
GAME THE FUCK OVER IN MY TONE WORLD.
I thought holy shit that sounds incredible! It was so fat thick rich and beefy! Had so much woody timber and character!
Then the plexi boner stuck!
I started zoning in on VH more and more. I finally could now hear fir the first time in an amp what made it a living breathing thing and where distortion had a deep rich dynamic character that could be coaxed for more or less to become part of the instrument itself and the person playin into it.
I still dig Metallicas stuff. But that sound is nothin like those old shool ac/dc or VH. They are two entirely different things than all that bass heavy boogie thing that everyone took a tone detour on. I see more and more now the bass in todays music is sooooo overdone on guitar sounds.
I wanna puke when I hear a big farting boogie crunch tone anymore sometimes. Its like to some of these bands that the more bass you can pump from your guitar the heavier and cooler it will be.
Metallica realized this on their latest release Death Magnetic. It returns to a more Killem All sound than the stuff between those two records. Even they don't use the bass they once did.
Biggest lesson for any dude tryin to get THAT baddass tone is to crank it up with less bass dialed in to get the slam kathunk thing happening. And its a tighter slam kathunk too.

[redgtr]

But the thing is you can keep the volume up much easier with a plexi ( sueprlead/bass ) than with any of the amps out today... I rehearsed with a band that we reunited due to a festival gig the other day... the other guitarplayer plays a JVM marshall... it sounds real nice actually, he can get a good chunky sound and can get more gain than nessacary if he wants to, BUT besides my rig it just dissapears no matter how much he cranked his amp... I allways use my PB when ever I play or reahears... and it didin't matter what he did with his amp, he couldn't get his amp to carry the sound thrue the mix as good as mine... theold amps sounds much warmer and fuller, with or without the gain... and where ever I show up it's allways the same talk " dude it sounds like the real thing "... yeah, that's cause IT IS the real thing... People tend to not complain about the volume as much if it's a warmer fuller sound...
The funny thing is we have played festivals together with metalbands ( don't really know what amps they use but it sounds more like buzzy, cuts the ears like a knife ), and even they have said it sounds much better than their own sound... and they don't know why!!!
No wonder it sounded better in the -70's...

BTW. is that your band, awangotango, Mos Generator? That sounds REALLY nice...

Your very correct on this. After many year doing live sound, I managed to get a pro EAW system. I could crank that thing unbelievably loud but because it sounded so good. I could move your internal organs and people loved it! Good tone sounds good at all levels.

[SteadyEddie]

I see more and more now the bass in todays music is sooooo overdone on guitar sounds.
I wanna puke when I hear a big farting boogie crunch tone anymore sometimes. Its like to some of these bands that the more bass you can pump from your guitar the heavier and cooler it will be.

It's not only the Boogies, it's the Mesa Rectifier series too. That lower mid and bass thing. Marshall emphasises the upper mids so it cuts through a mix with definition. Rectifiers and boogies are lower mid and bass. No definition. Sounds like a wall of mud. One of the reasons I hate "bro-rock" bands like Creed and Nickelbag. I can't stand those tones. Even though I kind of like Foo Fighters, I wish Dave Grohl would get off those damn modern amps. Those things probably sound good to people when they're sitting in Guitar Center, but they don't cut it in the mix...

[Ralle]

Can you imagin Foo Fighters with a couple of stacks of pure gold... cranked to their limit... that would suite them MUCH better than how their guitars sounds with the amps they're playing...
matter of taste ofcourse...

He he... a revolution going on, guys

[stef]

He he... a revolution going on, guys

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PljU-A0MFsY[/youtube]

[awangotango]

there's absolutely NO BASS AT ALL in his tones .none



[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwWpPY6x-cY[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5k358gowzw[/youtube]


the 'heaviest' tone he got was fair warning and still, NO BASS, just more low mids
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zy1D0uH1ys[/youtube]

[redgtr]

I think back in the early days, Metallica used a Marshall that James had for recording both guitars. Mick Mars supposedly turns his bass all the way off.

[awangotango]

sorry to derail the topic. did we figure out what the secret part was yet?

[redgtr]

I can clearly hark back to the first day I heard kill em all, VH1. I was like 10. Did I sit there and say, jeez, wherz the bass? It's not bassy enough. It's pussy. This doesn't sound like Sabbath.....NO, I said holy mother loving fuck this sounds like I'd died and gone to hard rock heaven. If I were a kid growing up now being fed bass heavy lead guitar, yes, I could now hear those records as 'light'. But then again, once you get that light lead guitar into a band with 2 or 3 other real musicians who have also tuned their instruments for tone, it fills out perfectly and the whole enchilada can sound very heavy even though the lead guitar is all midrange with a little upper end presence. When we tune our guitar rig solo in our bedrooms, it's natural to lean too far bassy. Add that to a cultural wave of bass heavy addicts and we got ourselves a several decade long dark ages of rock music.
and it's not just guitar, the whole culture is bass heavy. The biggest selling headphone is the beats, a bass heavy dull innacurate sounding mess. I really do think addiction is the best metaphor and maybe a real addiction we need to open up some clinics to detox people from. And 70's early 80's rock and metal will be their therapy!


I've been pondering this trend for decades now trying to figure out the why's and how's. The best theory I 've come up with is this: the world is out of control, it's a sad insecure mad scene, no one's got real confidence or sold rock like foundations to
their life. We are in a very turbulent uncertain period in the cycle of the stars. So bass is something that seems solid and a foundation or a rock in the ocean to hang our hat on and it gives a little comfort of some kind. But it's not needed, get in touch with nature and see the laws of the maker and you'll have real confidence and won't need life preservers like extra bass and then you can dial in a real guitar tone of the 'classic' era and help bring about a much needed revolution in rock music. Re-visit our roots and do it accurately without the modern bias of bass heavy if you want to call yourself a purist, or add a bit more low end if you just can't live otherwise but then you must remove your purist hardcore badge because otherwise the story of history is not written accurately and we forget that once upon a time, bass was not a part of rock lead guitar and without accurate history, the kids get even more confused, and what do they do, reach for the safety of bass and it's like a cycle of addiction

excellent point! As a producer I'm trying to teach guitarist to stay out of the bass"s territory. At first it sounds strange to them when they play alone but they start to like the responsiveness, better harmonics, etc.

[fivecoyote]

+1 on modern players not having a clue what good tone is, and many/all producers not having a clue either. This line, btw, is money: "It's tiny combos, beards and boat shoes all the way." HAHAHA!

Ralle, AWESOME tune, man. Great band! Definitely King's X-ish, good tone, good production. Where's the album??

[guitar007]

I had to look up bro-rock:

"What qualifies a band to be a Bro-Rock Band?

First and foremost, you must feel this feeling of blissful bromance while listening to it and the striking urgency to go out and drink with your best bros till your stomach turns and your brain can't comprehend anything anymore except the love for your bros."

[Ralle]

+1 on modern players not having a clue what good tone is, and many/all producers not having a clue either. This line, btw, is money: "It's tiny combos, beards and boat shoes all the way." HAHAHA!

Ralle, AWESOME tune, man. Great band! Definitely King's X-ish, good tone, good production. Where's the album??

Thanx man... nice to hear... well here's one thing about production, and what we're talking about here; those song were recorded in my basement... the guitars-plexi-powerbreak-mic(sm-58)straight into cubase at bedroom volumes. The bass thru a Behringer bass BDI 21 preamp-stright into cubase. Vocals was recorded into the same sm58 I miced the guitar with, into cubase. Dums came from a dumprogram called Groovagent ( wich is the VERY best natural sounding drums I've EVER heard ).
I haven't touched ANY eq in the mix what so ever... all I did was put some delay on one song, and a bit of compressor on the master volume in the mix, to eaven it out a bit.... that's it... " a naturell "
If we take a look at the guitar sound ( not just mine )... that stuff about bass ( thanx avangotango )... what most people don't realize is that to get that ballsy powerfull attack ( wich some confuses with " bass " ) but still that fat raw midrange and top ends, it has to be a ballance... or more correct; the right amout of gain in the lows; in other words the lower freqs needs to have enough space to wobble around with a level that DOSN'T hit clipping level... keep it clean in the lows and it will sound like a train came thru your wall... the gain has to be JUST at the right level down there, that's the trick... if that is succeded,
half the battle is won... NO distortion in the BASS... it WILL ruin the sound...
In 99% of my clips I've ever recorded, the bass controll is OFF...

[awangotango]

I agree, and that can be dialed in mostly with feedback R and location in my experience. Although the transformers and tube selection is quite a factor their too, not so much whether the output caps are .1 or .02


hey coyoty.nice woody site, browsed around it for the first time. Have you ever used the old sylvnias and old cabs in yoru search before you came to the conclusion that ed used' some 'xtra item?? I think that last bit of extra compression is from the board/mic pre etc and it's never going to be had by us straight from our halfstack but we can get 90% with stockish plexi/paf if we use the old gear and it's all dialed in. ime

[neikeel]

Based on the discussion above anyone tried a 0.0022uF (or smaller) between the treble cap middle lug and PI input 0.022uF ?

[dirtycooter]

Awesome! I didn't know these ISO's were floatin around out there-just the GH tracks but never heard these. Killer!

Ralle couldn't have said it better. Listen to the bottom end on atomic punk. That low E is so clean while everything else seems to be fryin hot.
There is somethin about the low E that kinda reminds me of SRV's blues tone-its clean but broke up ever so elegantly.

I love the HAIL track. But there are 4-5 what I call sounds there. Though its only two really-rolled down volume and full up lmao!
chorus/harmonizer parts a couple places
flanger
Clean intro part w/ flanger
lead (which seems to be different panning and ambient treatment -notice the slap echo is gone or shorter anyway and its dryer sounding-but same as rythm w/flanger) Its more up front dry in your face for jump out effect.

Interesting listen for sure.

But the thing that confuses me is the everything on 10 factor. Now I and others turn it down on the bass knob. If Ed had the legendary everything on 10 thing then theres a clue right there. Somethin is different if thats true.