A new clip to try my theory

[Ralle]

Guys... I'm sorry to dissapoint you, but I got back from the one person who told me the " secret "... and I was told NOT to reveal anything... So, I guess you will have to figure it out by your self... I will not awnser any more questions about that particular part...
Sorry...

Ralle,
Before you send us all on our merry way to tinker with our amps can you at least narrow down for us what type of part (i.e. capacitor, resistor, potentiometer, a wire, etc.,) that this added secret part is? In addition, would narrowing down where in the circuit (i.e. pre-amp, eq section, PI section, output section, negative feedback section, etc.,) the added secret part is located be something you could answer?

If I did, I might as well say what it is... come on guys... It's not like I have THE BIG DISSCOVERY here... the final awnser on Ed's speq... this is just what I have found tweeking around in my amp... That secret isn't really that big of a deal... I mean it does affect the tone, but not that much... I've done mods and changes in my amp that had much bigger influens on the sound than this secret...
Go with the bigger PI input... go with the v1b cathod value/brightcap change... the NFB... lead coupling... there's a lot to be done there... not to mention filtercaps... I will tell everything about these things... BUT NOT ABOUT THE SECRET...
There's very big chance you will find it out by your self when looking at these things... just like I found the other stuff... you'll just have to live with the fact it won't be confirmed, but does that really matter if it sounds right?

[jnew]

I get what you're saying and can respect that. I'm cool as I trust in my ears enough to settle on things that work for my amp and gear and so on. I guess now I'm more in a purist mode with going back to the 4 holed, plexi circuit and slaving so this is of particular interest to me now. More to come.

[jnew]

I just remembered from years ago about how you changed the value of the pot on you presence control. I don't remember the value but there was a resistor and different value cap as well. It wasn't the typical .1 configuration. I won't probe you about it being the secret or not but my question is this, If this presence control was on 10 (which is supposedly how everything on Ed's amp was) would these different valued still make a difference in tone?

[Tazin]

Ralle,
I totally respect your postion on this subject, and I apologize for being persistant. Since English is not your primary language, it sometimes can lead to confusion on behalf of the reader. Don't get me wrong here, you do a damn good good job with the language, but sometimes it's open to interpretation. For example, the use of the phrase "none typical parts" and "added part" should mean two different things. So, a ledger for these two phases might be as follows:

"none typical parts" = alternate value parts (i.e. cathode v1b 2.7K/0.68uF, or 27K/16 ohm tap NF) Note: were not actually adding parts were just changing their values.

"added parts" = additional parts (i.e. 0.022uF cap added in parallel to the pre-existing 0.022uF PI input cap, or 250pF cap added in parallel to the pre-existing 500pF mixer cap) Note: here we are increasing the total number of components found within the amp.

Anyhow, the confusion for me started with the first post whereas the "secret part" was referred to as a "none typical part". Later posts label the "secret part" as a "added part", hence the confusion.

[projectx102]

Dave Friedman gave the spec. Case closed.

[Tazin]

Dave Friedman gave the spec. Case closed.

The Dave Freidman specs don't seem to work for every amp; mine included. I mean all amps sound a little different naturally due to tolerance's, tube types and such, and some just have the mojo. Ralle's amp always sounds steller whether it's in stock form, one wire mod, cascaded, etc,. Sure, he's a monster player which helps tremendously, but he can just bang out an open A chord and it leaves your jaw laying on the ground. Ralle's amp has gone through so many surgeries and transplants I don't even think there's an original part left in his amp, and it still sounds great. It sounded amazing before and after he did the mod to his power brake. Hell, I bet he could toss the amp out a window into a pool then fish the thing out, dry it out, and it still would sound fabulous! I don't know, maybe it's his speakers and cabinet that hold some voodoo magic.....I believe he uses the 8 ohm version of the G12M with 6204 cones.

[TJB]

Ralle,

It's all good and I appreciate the info you do share with this forum. I do have a couple questions though and I'm not going to ask what the secret part is so don't worry and I agree with you that the secret part really isn't some magical part you have to have to be in VH territory.
In fact, the sound I hear when I listen to VH recordings no one has been able to achieve yet. Some guys look at the tone or eq some look at distortion and gain and some think it's diming the bias with Sylvania 6ca7 with D.F. specs and lowering voltage to 90v. Others think it's in speakers, pick ups, tubes and on and on.

Although those things help a great deal I don't think that's what I'm hearing in my head. The only way for me to put it into words is that it sounds like a pre amp tube with much more voltage either on the plates or cathode or something like that and it gives a kind of internal overdrive quality to the sound.
Some might say you have to dime the bias but I'm not so sure plus I think the sound I'm hearing can be achieved in the pre amp some how without running the power tubes in such an unbalanced manor.

When you recorded "The fun song" clip did you have the secret part installed in you amp?

Also, when you said 50uf on mains that seems really low for a 100 watt. My 2203 has (2) 50uf x 50uf in series I think. Is that what you meant?

[projectx102]

Dave Friedman gave the spec. Case closed.

The Dave Freidman specs don't seem to work for every amp; mine included. I mean all amps sound a little different naturally due to tolerance's, tube types and such, and some just have the mojo. Ralle's amp always sounds steller whether it's in stock form, one wire mod, cascaded, etc,. Sure, he's a monster player which helps tremendously, but he can just bang out an open A chord and it leaves your jaw laying on the ground. Ralle's amp has gone through so many surgeries and transplants I don't even think there's an original part left in his amp, and it still sounds great. It sounded amazing before and after he did the mod to his power brake. Hell, I bet he could toss the amp out a window into a pool then fish the thing out, dry it out, and it still would sound fabulous! I don't know, maybe it's his speakers and cabinet that hold some voodoo magic.....I believe he uses the 8 ohm version of the G12M with 6204 cones.

So then I guess the "secret" part won't sound great in every amp either...right? All the more reason it seems a little silly to protect it.

[Velva]

Ralle, my wife is swedish born and you are making her proud (and she hates vh with a passion)...

As I read this thread I keep thinking a .68 chicklet on V1 Cap, .022 el menco mylar dipped on V1A plate bypass cap, and .047 el menco mylar dippped again on the PI input cap. Are you using any of these in this spec?

And just to be clear, this secret part is actually a new part introduced into the circuit not a single part with a different value or brand name?

I respect your desire to keep a secret (feel free to pm me if you can't take it anymore and need to get it off your chest).

[jnew]

You mean a .022 cap bypassing one of the 100K plate resistors?

[Ralle]

Thanx guys... that feels good to hear...
He he... well, my english could sometimes cause some issues... just to be clear;
The none typical parts means; parts that are stock from the factory, but differs from the more common circut speqs...
Added parts means; parts that are added by a tech or person... changing a value by adding a sertain component...

The none typical parts: I belive there are two parts that are NONE typical... the PI input cap ( 47nF ), and this f****** secret...

And the added part; Here, I think there are two opptions... either an additional 500pF across the allready excisting brightcap in the mixer... thing is that with this circut, it works best with having 2.7k/.022u lead channel... Or something like having the 2.7k swapped for an 820 ohm, or maybe that bass treble controll ( backside pot, showed here a while ago )... here with .0022uin the leadchannel...

[TJB]

Ralle,
All I have to say is Very Interesting! That sounds alot like what I mentioned too! I guess you could call it a bass-treble pot and it does have a .0022uf cap and it really doesn't have to be a mustard either a CDE seems to work fine there but what ever kind you prefer.
The pot type and value I'm not sure about but maybe a 1 meg audio and I recommend a CTS pot with push-pull switch that way you can pull out to activate or push in to bypass. Also, you can add a 1/4" switching jack to the pot and now you have a pre-amp out activated with knob pulled out.
If it's possible that this may be the "secret" part it has been done probably long before your friend found out about it. Sorry, not trying to hurt any feelings here but this mod has been around since the mid 80's when Jose' installed it in my amp and maybe before that. So, if you ask me it's no secret at all, really.

He also installed the 2203 type mv on the same 4 holer amp and he recommended not running the power amp up full and to back off on the mv. Keep in mind I have an extra 12ax7 for extra high gain. Now something special seems to happen with the NFB presence control. I have 100k NFB and .1uf on the presence pot. The amp seems to be gaining more balls as you turn the presence up, not quite how the presence control usually works. Pretty cool! I need to play around with this some more. All this time and I guess I never realized all the possibilities of this amp.

[N3m0 7h3 Fi5h]

Oh well ... I always keep coming back to see these old pictures.. over.. and over again..
... when people start to talk about parts inside Ed's Amp .. is there anyone can see any .68 cap on V2a cathode ?
(..or.. is it under big black cap) ..?







http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php ... 07#p198207" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

.. and somehow ..
some pictures in Golden Touring Amp, that mysteriously missing 10K 2W resistors in Preamp Filter Cap ..



.. bigger photo :

http://fraqjw.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p ... jpg?psid=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://fraqjw.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p ... jpg?psid=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php ... &start=810" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


... maybe.. we should contact :

[rgorke]

That's a Jose sticker and....

Sherman Oaks hasn't been (213) for 30 years.

It might be fun to call that number and see who answers both (213) and (818). Ask for Jose.

[Tone Slinger]

There's 'orange drops' everywhere in that amp. Definate recap job. The other amp was also far from what it was when it left the factory. The v2 bypass cap is a 330uf electrolytic it appears (and no .68uf at all being bypassed).
The real mystery to me is how Ed's amp was, spec/component wise, in 1977. At that point, there wasnt much money going around from those guys (except Davids physician/actor father), so Ed's amp had more than likely only been maintained as needed (like blown tranny's, tubes, etc).
By the time the '78 tour started, It seems likely that Ed would have had better resources at hand to get done what he needed. I'm sure that by the end of the '79 tour Ed had pretty decent funds for a 24 year old and lots of techs were probably anxious to get in his amps, supposidly "improving' things