How EVH gets his sound?

[Voodoo Amps]

Hello and welcome Trace. I respect that you came aboard with your own words, to dilute any misreprentations.

Many thanks jnew, truly.

It is an art that is ultimately purely subjective. My best amp might be the cheapest mess you could build/find. But it's my inspiration to stay in the game.

Strictly from my own point of view; I think you've touched on something which most do not seem to mention often, which is inspiration. We cannot see it, we cannot bottle it but we know when it comes over us when we're playing. When an amp plays just right, when it feels 1-2 string gauges easier to play when you’re bending notes or vibrato'ing, the tone sounds just right. Inspiration is a power thing.

I grew up around tubes & amps but back when I really started digging deeper into this (circa 1998) some amps would come out amazing & even though I was using the same values, same components, other amps would not good but they didn't have that inspirational thing that makes an amp amazing. That set me on a course to try & figure out 'why' that was. Granted every amp has tolerances, depending on the parts & components it tends to be 5% to some times 10% or more. All of those tolerances add up so when you are trying to replicate an amp (building) or make a Mod repeatable, it can be very challenging. I slowly started building a collection of older books on vacuum tube electronics, materials, transformers, mealurgy & so on. Most date some where between the 40's through the 60's. Some pre-date standard tube circuits to the point where they are discussing theories on how tubes can be used in various types circuits while others have bits & pieces of information that others do not & so one. I enjoy reading through them at night & some times there is a kernel of information that didn't speak to me before but I suddenly find myself thinking "I could try this on 'X' amp that I'm working on...' Other times just tinkering around produces great results & others times a 'happy accident' would reveal a new approach to a circuit I was working on.

One day it occurred to be that what I really chasing was the art form & not the science. This means many things to many techs & as I mentioned earlier in this thread there is no right or wrong when it comes to tone. In my experience I have found there are some things that effect the feel that cannot be readily calculated or seen on test equipment & it's not for lack of trying over the years. In my opinion all the best test gear in the world (we've collected a lot of it over the years) will not show you how an amp feels. I wish there were as it would make my job much easier & I'm all for that but that's also part of what makes this an art form. For better or worse that's one of the many things I enjoy about the art form that keeps me inspired. Layout is another as different layouts using the same circuit also sound & feel different so that also is part of the art form.

I realize that this is a technical related forum & that many techs will vehemently disagree with what I am saying (IE: if it can't be tested or measured then it doesn't exist & yes I used to subscribe to that mindset for many years), which of course is perfectly fine as we can agree to disagree as I am not standing on this as a fact but rather simply stating my opinion on how I look at it.

Having said that please let me say this, I am not trying to sway anyone & I nor do I have any interests of trying to be top-tech on this or any forum (there are plenty of qualified people here for that). I mean no offense or disrespect towards anyone in any way, I'm simply explaining how I personally look at this, hence from my own view point thus making this one man's opinion. It by no means make me any more right than anyone else & I would never suggest otherwise.

I certainly wish I had the free time to post more as I do enjoy the interaction, sincerely I do. The business keeps me very busy & we recently signed a distribution deal that will allow us to ramp up manufacturing of Voodoo products. We have also simultaneously relocated both the business as well as our residence, which as you can probably imagine has proven to be an undertaking (I don't recommend doing both at the same time--lol). This along with setting up the new facility, manufacturing lines, R&D, etc has been demanding on my time. I only say this as it may take me time to reply to posts & I honestly do not recall which email address I signed up with or if it's still a valid email so I may not get the email notifications altering me about a reply or new post so I kindly ask that you please be patient with me (I'm getting old--lol).


With respect;
Trace Davis

[Voodoo Amps]

No worries. Welcome bacl. Didn't mean to imply who gooped the 70s PTP, or make you feel accused. We've all done stuff years ago we regret with amps. I couldn't remember if it was a Vodoo, Cameron, or other on that 70s PTP so I didn't say who exactly gooped this one,

As you mentioned it, Mark Cameron is the only one I know of that had 'gooped' his Jose circuits, again we never epoxied a Jose circuit. I say 'gooped' as he used black silicone verses epoxy. IE: Per customer requests I have removed the silicone on a few Cameron's & generally speaking it took approximately 45 minutes, it was fairly easy but epoxy is more laborious to deal with.

but I have seen other Vintage gear with your sticker on the back and gooped up board. Glad you stopped that practice.

I suppose it would depend on what you call vintage. Back then you could buy a mint condition JCM800 2203 off eBay for $300-$350 & there were 10-12 listed at any given time. The vintage market as we know it know had impacted the prices like it had just before the recession & most collectors were trying to secure the older plexi's from the 60's. We epoxied 1 Super Lead from the 70's but that was rebuilt many years ago. The JCM800 2204 / 2203's we the ones, which these days many are considering to be vintage. Again according to our records we epoxied 12 Marshalls & have since rebuilt all but 2 & 1 is in route to us now to be rebuilt.

You're right about others gooping. And some of them ( who I won't name) make the BS "only I know how" claim attributed to you..

Please forgive me as I may be over looking the obvious but I'm not sure I follow you? I'm not trying to be combative nor argumentative, I'm just understanding your meaning. Again sorry if I'm over looking the obvious.

Lunch time is over, back to work I go


Respectfully;
Trace

[neikeel]

Hi Trace

Nice to see you here on georges forum to discuss things.

I fully admit that I posted the quote in the full knowledge that most people here would see that with the language used by the potential customer that he was not well versed in the more technical aspects of amp work but was excited by the prospect of getting his amp modded.

My motive was tongue in cheek to prompt discussion re: the potential for variacs, VVR, Jose type clipping circuits potentially all in one amp as a means of chasing the EVH tones, and the tone chasers here were better doing this with a straight 12 series with a variac and good technique or the other tricks/mods. There seem to be several ways of skinning the cat, and the argument/discussion contiues as to the best way of doing it.

I may be speaking out of turn but as I see it most of the froum members are all chasing our tails - that is half the fun, look at the AFD thread where 'the wheel' is constantly being reinvented.

Clearly the pros who do this for a living have it down to an art and have a full bag of tricks to mod amps for their customers sound, but most of us here are tinkerers.

We would all love you to share snippets with us (although of course I appreciat that it would not be good business practice!)

[mightymike]

No worries. Welcome bacl. Didn't mean to imply who gooped the 70s PTP, or make you feel accused. We've all done stuff years ago we regret with amps. I couldn't remember if it was a Vodoo, Cameron, or other on that 70s PTP so I didn't say who exactly gooped this one,

As you mentioned it, Mark Cameron is the only one I know of that had 'gooped' his Jose circuits, again we never epoxied a Jose circuit. I say 'gooped' as he used black silicone verses epoxy. IE: Per customer requests I have removed the silicone on a few Cameron's & generally speaking it took approximately 45 minutes, it was fairly easy but epoxy is more laborious to deal with.

but I have seen other Vintage gear with your sticker on the back and gooped up board. Glad you stopped that practice.

I suppose it would depend on what you call vintage. Back then you could buy a mint condition JCM800 2203 off eBay for $300-$350 & there were 10-12 listed at any given time. The vintage market as we know it know had impacted the prices like it had just before the recession & most collectors were trying to secure the older plexi's from the 60's. We epoxied 1 Super Lead from the 70's but that was rebuilt many years ago. The JCM800 2204 / 2203's we the ones, which these days many are considering to be vintage. Again according to our records we epoxied 12 Marshalls & have since rebuilt all but 2 & 1 is in route to us now to be rebuilt.

You're right about others gooping. And some of them ( who I won't name) make the BS "only I know how" claim attributed to you..

Please forgive me as I may be over looking the obvious but I'm not sure I follow you? I'm not trying to be combative nor argumentative, I'm just understanding your meaning. Again sorry if I'm over looking the obvious.

Lunch time is over, back to work I go


Respectfully;
Trace

I use gooped as a generic term to describe circuits covered with silicone or epoxy concealment. The amp I SMH over was the 70s Beige PTP. I didn't say you did that.

True, what we see now as vintage wasn't as appreciated 10 -15 years ago. IIRC the one of yours I saw was a 70s PCB. At least you didn't goop a Jose, and claim only you know how to do that mod. I misinterpreted the OP, and thought that's what you do based on that PCB amp.

Thanks for the clarification

[JimiJames]

hmm...
pretty serious thread here.

[Voodoo Amps]

Hi Trace

Nice to see you here on georges forum to discuss things.

I fully admit that I posted the quote in the full knowledge that most people here would see that with the language used by the potential customer that he was not well versed in the more technical aspects of amp work but was excited by the prospect of getting his amp modded.

My motive was tongue in cheek to prompt discussion re: the potential for variacs, VVR, Jose type clipping circuits potentially all in one amp as a means of chasing the EVH tones, and the tone chasers here were better doing this with a straight 12 series with a variac and good technique or the other tricks/mods. There seem to be several ways of skinning the cat, and the argument/discussion contiues as to the best way of doing it.

I may be speaking out of turn but as I see it most of the froum members are all chasing our tails - that is half the fun, look at the AFD thread where 'the wheel' is constantly being reinvented.

I follow you neikeel & I appreciate you taking the time to clarify. From my perspective, your statement of "Don't shoot the messenger, but according to Trace you have all been chasing your tails " felt or seemed a bit more like a jab at me considering the context, at least that's how I interpreted it & I simply wanted to clarify so the thread did not continue to go in a negative direction. I wasn't sure what the politics of the forum were so out of respect I called George to discuss it as this is forum (I was trying to do the right thing by everyone).

The truth is I enjoy talking tube electronics & circa 20 years ago I used to frequent the 'Ampage' forum. There were a lot of knowledgeable techs there who has since passed on but there were a lot of guys looking to learn in order to get the tones they were looking for. Several went on to form their own amp companies & are still in business today putting out products or Modding amps. It was a great community of people all looking to help & share ideas with one another, granted this was also at the beginnings of the internet.

Several years ago when I was having my morning coffee on a Saturday or Sunday when I wasn't on the road I would try to log into a few forums & help people as my way of giving back. If I saw someone who was having a hard time with an amp they were tweaking I would post with some suggestions. A few years ago or so I noticed that when I would post, in the hopes of helping the original poster or correcting a misnomer, there would inevitably be 1-2 members with a high post count that take a hard stance on the opposite line & shortly after they posted others would join in. I got the impression they felt I was in some way stepping on their toes, which was never my intention. It occurred to me that the forum mentality that I once enjoyed had changed. I seemed it would be best if I did not post as I did not want to be the person who was unintentionally creating waves.

Clearly the pros who do this for a living have it down to an art and have a full bag of tricks to mod amps for their customers sound, but most of us here are tinkerers.

I'm not sure what qualifies a person to be a pro these days (I'm still working on it myself--lol). Seriously though, I'm often asked about this & in my humble opinion In order to develop a full 'bag of tricks', or any tricks at all for that matter (lol) it requires a deep love or passion wanting to know what makes a tube amp tick. For me it started with having an amazing plexi that I loved. A lightening storm took out the output transformer & power tubes. Once the OT was changed & a new set of tubes was installed, it never sounded or felt the same. That set me on a quest to find out how each component in a plexi effected the tone & feel. Essentially I was trying to get back something I had lost. In doing so I was bitten by the electronic-tube-bug & was addicted.

We play tube amps because they sound & feel a certain way to our hands & ears. When trying to figure out what makes things sound as well as feel a certain way there are seemingly countless 'rabbit holes' one can run down. How deep & how far are always contingent on the individual. As we are human everyone is different & I have learned that I'm the the kind of person who has to chase every rabbit down the hole to the bitter end (not sure why exactly but it is what it is--lol). In my very humble opinion, this is where the 'bag of tricks' comes from & how large of a trick-bag you have is solely dependent on the amount of hours one has logged on the bench experimenting.

IE: take a Jose circuit for example, install the exactly same components into a horizontal input JCM800 2203, a vertical input 2203 & a 2203x reissue. When you go to audio test them you will notice they will all sound & feel different from one another. Most attribute this to the amps being different from one another, different layouts, etc however they can be made to sound & feel identical but that's where chasing the rabbit down the hole affords you the knowledge pool as well as the experience to do so. Again this is just my opinion, not a fact.

We would all love you to share snippets with us (although of course I appreciat that it would not be good business practice!)

I'm not sure what you are looking for me to share (just being honest) but if it's something I can share in a public forum & it does not involve me crossing any legal lines via the NDA's I've signed & so on then I'm happy to lend my opinion where I can as time permits


Have a great day & a relaxing weekend;
Trace Davis

[mightymike]

There are 1000s of people on this forum with all skill sets and varied knowledge. You get that many people in one place, and you are bound to have a "few high post count know nothings". Compared to other forums, this one is great because it is builder related.

There are craftsman here (pro and tinkerer) who do the finest workmanship out there and have the tone to back it up BAR NONE! .Tonaly I would put their work at the top 99.99999% of people in this profession.At the end of the day it is about the tone, and some here just have the best tone IMHO.

What you call rabbit holes, many here call tonal reference,,and a search of this forum will show no stone has been left un turned, and collectively new stones keep getting turned. Some people mine the info here then play genius like they invented something. It's pretty funny actually. I'm.sure someone will be coming out with a Variac Attenuator soon that has been listening to JNEW's clips.

What I enjoy most is the never ending testing. One person can only do so much, so it's fun to be in a place where we can bounce ideas off each other and compare findings.. Here we enjoy sharing out of the passion for it and nobody acts like they are better than anyone, and I've made some great friends in the process.

There's some great people here.

[mightymike]

... A few years ago or so I noticed that when I would post, in the hopes of helping the original poster or correcting a misnomer, there would inevitably be 1-2 members with a high post count that take a hard stance on the opposite line & shortly after they posted others would join in. I got the impression they felt I was in some way stepping on their toes, which was never my intention. It occurred to me that the forum mentality that I once enjoyed had changed...

This pretty much sums up the former moderators here, and their handfull of high-count poster cohorts.

They have run off or gutlessly banned almost everyone. The few left simply read because they're afraid to post.

The irony is that the biggest offenders are hopelessly in denial about this, and are the first ones to start whining about a dearth of fanfare or discussions...

I think it's time for your medication.

[jnew]

Rabbit holes, tonal reference, stones unturned. All the same thing guys. I fully get where Trace is coming from in that it is an ever evolving lesson. Stock 68 plexi circuit alone has a lot of rabbit holes because of it being a transitional period for Marshall. 820 Ohm vs. 2.7K Ohm, 27K, 47K or 100K in the NFB, the tap that it is connected to, 16uF, 20uF, 32uF pre-amp filtering, and on and on and on. I have been (and continue) through all of this. One HAS to IMO, and not just with the amp. It's been EP-3 circuits, amp component value variations of course, variac's (the latest thing for me with two of them now) and remember the polarity thing I was drilling on? Well, guess what, that factors in an appreciable tonal difference as well. The old amps had them. New ones don't. Same thing for the nicknamed "death cap" that the polarity switches had. Those polarity switches didn't actually change the polarity of the amp BTW. The polarity was determined by how the old two prong cord were plugged in. The polarity switch was only a switch for that cap. I would have never figured that out without chasing it with the "why is that" mentality. Mike made a very interesting point on how this changes the way we listen to things. Our hearing evolves immensely as our skills sharpen and our knowledge grows.

[jnew]

... A few years ago or so I noticed that when I would post, in the hopes of helping the original poster or correcting a misnomer, there would inevitably be 1-2 members with a high post count that take a hard stance on the opposite line & shortly after they posted others would join in. I got the impression they felt I was in some way stepping on their toes, which was never my intention. It occurred to me that the forum mentality that I once enjoyed had changed...

This pretty much sums up the former moderators here, and their handfull of high-count poster cohorts.

They have run off or gutlessly banned almost everyone. The few left simply read because they're afraid to post.

The irony is that the biggest offenders are hopelessly in denial about this, and are the first ones to start whining about a dearth of fanfare or discussions...

Huh?

[Voodoo Amps]

There are 1000s of people on this forum with all skill sets and varied knowledge. You get that many people in one place, and you are bound to have a "few high post count know nothings". Compared to other forums, this one is great because it is builder related.

There are craftsman here (pro and tinkerer) who do the finest workmanship out there and have the tone to back it up BAR NONE! .Tonaly I would put their work at the top 99.99999% of people in this profession.At the end of the day it is about the tone, and some here just have the best tone IMHO.

What you call rabbit holes, many here call tonal reference,,and a search of this forum will show no stone has been left un turned, and collectively new stones keep getting turned. Some people mine the info here then play genius like they invented something. It's pretty funny actually. I'm.sure someone will be coming out with a Variac Attenuator soon that has been listening to JNEW's clips.

What I enjoy most is the never ending testing. One person can only do so much, so it's fun to be in a place where we can bounce ideas off each other and compare findings.. Here we enjoy sharing out of the passion for it and nobody acts like they are better than anyone, and I've made some great friends in the process.

There's some great people here.

That is very good to hear, truly & sincerely. It's all but unheard of to find a forum where people band together verses looking at it a competition. I appreciate you taking the time to post what you have here, it's very enlightening to me.


Thanks again!
Trace Davis

[Voodoo Amps]

Mike made a very interesting point on how this changes the way we listen to things. Our hearing evolves immensely as our skills sharpen and our knowledge grows.

I couldn't agree more. The more time we spend carefully listening the better & more acute our hearing becomes. In turn this does sharpen ones skills & adds to the knowledge from which to draw from. Some times we learn things that we do not care for while others times we find some things we really enjoy. Tone is never ending & that's what I love the most about this business.


Have a great day!
Trace Davis

[Voodoo Amps]

... A few years ago or so I noticed that when I would post, in the hopes of helping the original poster or correcting a misnomer, there would inevitably be 1-2 members with a high post count that take a hard stance on the opposite line & shortly after they posted others would join in. I got the impression they felt I was in some way stepping on their toes, which was never my intention. It occurred to me that the forum mentality that I once enjoyed had changed...

This pretty much sums up the former moderators here, and their handfull of high-count poster cohorts.

They have run off or gutlessly banned almost everyone. The few left simply read because they're afraid to post.

The irony is that the biggest offenders are hopelessly in denial about this, and are the first ones to start whining about a dearth of fanfare or discussions...

My apologies, perhaps I should have been more clear in that I was not singling out this forum. My apologies if that was the impression I gave, that was not my intention. What I was referring to occurred on several different forums, predominantly those where members had some technical knowledge.


Sorry for any confusion;
Trace Davis

[mightymike]

It's as all good Trace. No worries.