Franky's P.A.F ?

[EJSLPlexi]

I see your point, and there may be quite a bit of 'back and forth' concerning the REAL TRUTH as to HOW and WHY 'ol Seymour finally got back to that original rewind he performed for Ed. Did he 'discover' the customer notes like that 2001 post by that Dave guy ? Did he get to INSPECT that original paf he rewound for Ed at a LATER date, jarring his memory ? etc, etc

One thing is certain, Ed's early Franky tone was a 'SUM OF ALL THE PARTS'. You gotta have an ash body,vintage Fender style tremolo bridge,500k pot and in my exp. a '78 spec hb'er. To me, the proof that the '78 is valid is its SOUND. So many of the vids (even the Duncan approved vid) showcase that pu in the wrong light, using floyds and alder bodies, etc. To me, only David Bray and Sean McFly have demoed it properly.

Yeah all valid points and i guess the best bet is to wait until a clip is posted of the 78 with all the right elements
12xxxx,ash strat with fender trem.EQ,ep3,etc.
till then it is anyones guess.
Bottom line is the 78 is a outstanding pu despite if eddie used one or not.
I like it more than my two real PAF's

[Tone Slinger]

I see your point, and there may be quite a bit of 'back and forth' concerning the REAL TRUTH as to HOW and WHY 'ol Seymour finally got back to that original rewind he performed for Ed. Did he 'discover' the customer notes like that 2001 post by that Dave guy ? Did he get to INSPECT that original paf he rewound for Ed at a LATER date, jarring his memory ? etc, etc

One thing is certain, Ed's early Franky tone was a 'SUM OF ALL THE PARTS'. You gotta have an ash body,vintage Fender style tremolo bridge,500k pot and in my exp. a '78 spec hb'er. To me, the proof that the '78 is valid is its SOUND. So many of the vids (even the Duncan approved vid) showcase that pu in the wrong light, using floyds and alder bodies, etc. To me, only David Bray and Sean McFly have demoed it properly.

Yeah all valid points and i guess the best bet is to wait until a clip is posted of the 78 with all the right elements
12xxxx,ash strat with fender trem.EQ,ep3,etc.
till then it is anyones guess.
Bottom line is the 78 is a outstanding pu despite if eddie used one or not.
I like it more than my two real PAF's

Well, I dont think it needs to be THAT specific.......Eddie only had the one 12xxx, and live (maybe even the studio ?) he 'blended' 2 to 3 amps.I prefer the live '77/'78 tones(and playing ) to either of the 1st two albums in many ways. And then in the Rosen interview its the Franky through the little tube Fender, so I think a good assesment can be made without having to have a 12xxx. Any nice 50 or 100 watt 4 holer can do the job just as well, if set to the right specs, etc, but thats opening up a whole other can of worms

[dirtycooter]

My intention is not to argue if the 78 is IT.
But I have to say lets go back

Review the timeline here, look at the 3 different pickups HE has offered with some kinda "VH tag".
The custom was advertised-seymour got his hands slapped, and that was a cup of STFU served quickly and it stuck!
You do NOT see even a slight nod to that anymore from Seymour. Not one. And thats been a LONG time ago.
Would Ed be that legally savvy? Well... take a look at who he was trolling with. Gene Simmons is no dummy in these things-he preached to those guys back then about legal positioning in the music biz. This is a a fact as well as we know its fact about the Custom. Then there is Diamond Dave... who wrote the tour riders. Another legal smart dude.
I think we have 3 legit facts here we know happened and are documented. Simmons is one of the smartest richest investing men out there especially in comparison to many in the music game coming from a bands side of things.
So its likely or almost certain that Seymour got a cease and decist order from the court-which if you violate-you have civil damages as well as contemot of court violation of a court order-one is criminally punisheable and the other is only a civil deal if you got the coin to PAY OUT when you lose in court on this aspect.

[dirtycooter]

Lets move on to the 78.
Originally called the EVH. That doesn't happen anymore. Nothing is known or heard about this thing until what? 2001?
Notta, zip, zero. It didn't exist as far as anyone knows prior to 2001. Dead as Elvis before that. But there was this rumor SD knew the secret wind. We are talkin about a guy quick to blow up the custom first thing/chance and ride some success of the band. 23 years later he comes out with the EVH78??? Thats a long time in between. But once again he gotta wack on the hands-no EVH label used anymore. Why? Certain guarantee legal action from Ed here.
This thing is so opposite of the Custom it isn't even slightly funny. Total opposite. And it was lost or misplaced for 23 years?
You believe he lost or couldn't find the recipe for it for 23 years then I wanna blind fold you, then take you on a hot dog picnic
The entire part of this story is total BS. The one thing that could make his business over the top credible and further profittable and he misplaces or loses the recipe? For 23years!? Wtf ever
You think a panel of jurors would believe this for one second? With the stature of EVH in the musical merchandise community?? But again..... both the Custom and 78 have gotten the "suggestive label". Well the Custom GOT the boldest label while the EVH evenly voiced harmonics-yeah thats what that stands for-got the smackdown put on it. But it was merely a suggestive name.
We won't even discuss the IM1. Lets focus on the 78 and Custom.
One is said to be it and then silently retracted and never heard if again in that regard-not even suggested.
But we have another 23 years later thats never once solidly claimed to be IT. But its suggestive as hell in its labeling.
The two pickups are miles apart genetically. How in the hell can that be??
One has the "this is IT!" tag. The 78 got the "heavy power of suggestion" tag.
And as far as SUGGESTIVE TAGS... now lets look at IM1.
Facts are clear here if you stick to them. We got a definite, and two suggestive pickups.

[EJSLPlexi]

I agree with you DC, the whole not even being mentioned/rumored until 2001 is what really got me thinking about this.
Another really strange thing is that is around the time when all the other VH inspired models started coming out with a very similar spec,
the BKP VH II((9K alnico 5)
the guitarforce eruptor(9K alnico 2)
and there is a lot more like the EBS2 by smits,the VHPAF by dimarzio(virtual hot is what they said it meant)
then there is a brownbucker also 9K alnico 2.
so you got all these 9K PAF's all of a sudden claiming to do the VH tone.
Back to seymour, if he wound the 78 for ed why didnt he just post that in the guitar player ad as the van halen model?
why the custom?
He would have gotten in trouble either way so why not try to sell it back then?
There is one guy that would know, that guy doug that has the VH museum, he has the proto duncan VH pu.
If you watch VH the early years at the end he shows the pu.
go to 4:42 in this vid and you will see it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3QfJbn ... 1D42A93FA3
It has a VH tag sticker on it as well as a "seymourized" sticker that is on all old duncans from 77-79
my custom has that sticker

[Tone Slinger]

Here again, Seymour KNEW that a 9kish A2 paf pu just didnt have any 'Bells and Whistles'. A 'Custom' (or JB) is a much more drastic sound as compared to alot of the stock pu's being used in most guitars back then.It just wouldnt have been a good idea in releasing apu like the '78 back then. Hell, even today you got guys holering 'modded hi gain' when talking about Ed's early tone What Ed had (most probably a '78 spec) just isnt as impressive being ran into a 2203/2204, which by the late '70's had all but replaced the 1987/1959's. People hardly EVER (IF ever) ran a non master Marshall the way Ed did(full up/variaced,eq boosted,etc), OR, had a guitar 'quite' like that B&W Franky incarnation. Ed said it many times, his rig "Matches", meaning his guitar/pickup/amps.
The reason that SO many pickup models essentially echoed the Duncan '78's recipe is because it got out. Either Seymour really did discover an old invoice or something, OR, he got his hands BACK on that paf and rediscovered what he had done to it.
There is absolutely nothing to be gained by Seymour Duncan to lie about this. We all know Ed has used JBesque designs in the '80's as well as the 'Custom Custom' type spec of his Frankenstein (or is it Wolfgang ?) pu's. I think its pretty obvious, when comparing the variables,guitar spec wise, that Ed WASNT using a high gain pu in that mid '77/'79 era Franky.

[Tone Slinger]

oops, double post

[dirtycooter]

The real ONLY way it seems to fit... to me... and I have credentials of 14 years of serious investigative work on a professional level.. to be a modified PAF... low outpt pickup.... is slaving.
Wide open plexi eats greenbacks..... thats just physics.
Take into consideration the load box as crude as it may have been.... will indeed chop top and bottom off.
What then does A2 accomplish? ?? Are you hearing the end result of a load box limiting frequency with A2? In a non slaving approach?
Because you can dime one of any 12 series plexis that are legitly close to being on spec and this pickup falls on its face entirely. It just don't have it does it?
Show me a clip with a 12 series wide open balls out and a 78 even gettin in the "zip code".

To slave with a crude load (1977-1978 was not at all advanced here) and we know what happens.
Treble and bass succumbs to physics.

In all respect here is really how I see it.
greenbacks don't take shit..... not a dimed plexi for extended periods.
slaving solves all these issues.
volume is reduced here.
And also.... the variac may provide a safer less heat making dimed amp where tubes live a little longer.
This is a topic in its own.

[dirtycooter]

We do know a cranked plexi with tons of A5 clips is... getting VH2 territory. But I have yet to hear A2 do VH2 as well.
Yes McFly gets brown..... with a modified MV type amp. But that is about as close as I have heard with A2 and not withstanding any A5's in the same context.
Not to mention bested tonaly by many other pickups. The gain and voice is there...... but it still is not as spot on as many clips I have heard using a real 12 series with no MV. It just doesn't and has not happened. I would invite a panel here on just the NMV clips to argue the point.

[dirtycooter]

Show me a true 12series dimed balls out with A2 78 gettin it done. Then lets weigh in on other clips bringin the mail with same criteria.
Remember we have 3 different scenarios-modified (where a2 survives,) stock, then stock slaved. Choose carefully.
Then we will take a vote on clippage. First one to 5 on top wins
78 don't have a chance here really but..... show me
And I leave this open to the critics alone. I will count myself out but will offer clippage referrals for scrutiny.

[EJSLPlexi]

Show me a true 12series dimed balls out with A2 78 gettin it done. Then lets weigh in on other clips bringin the mail with same criteria.
Remember we have 3 different scenarios-modified (where a2 survives,) stock, then stock slaved. Choose carefully.
Then we will take a vote on clippage. First one to 5 on top wins
78 don't have a chance here really but..... show me

Problem is that there is not even a single clip of a 78 into a 12series which is another thing that makes me wonder.
IF the 78 it thee VH I pu, where are all the clips of it doing that tone?
there are guys that have pretty much ed's old rig down to the vintage MXR pedals,old echoplex's and even the univox echo.
still no clips here or on youtube.
DSD,1300,1800,duncan custom clips are plenty but the 78? not a one

[dirtycooter]

I don't wanna argue at all but THAT is my point.
Is the reduced top and subdued tone we hear a product of slaving or load box defilement of the tone?
Or
Is it all the reduced top end we hear with an A2?
Think about this.
Ed did not sit in front of a 12 series dimed for how many years? 36 years?!
There has never been a legit involvment of him having the hearing issues like Eric Johnson, Ted Nugent, or Pete Townsend.
Its way more about his hip, alcoholism, cancer. Not much on Ed having tinnitus-actually never that I seen.
Volume was under control somehow more than we know. Look how he is basically got his dick IN THE CAB getting feedback onstage. We all know thats not neccassary with a loud amp-he coulda stood 10feet away and got that.
Tricks are more in the volume control methods if you ask me.
I really need to get my dick in gear and see what the second presence control on a tube slave does tonally after a pure neandrithal resistive load slave set-up does..
The more I view and see it the more I believe it was slaved. It just MAKES SENSE.

[dirtycooter]

Look and listen carefully.
Live ready to go.... ALWAYS MORE THAN ONE HEAD TOGETHER sittin operating or ready to operate looking in every single pic?
VH2 studio shots? Staged! Why would he need the bomb and 20 cabs in there? Totally not needed as well here we see just one head for the fluff of it all. Fun fun make it look badass more than we are. Totally.
Variac? F'n A! Lets try to keep a dime slaved loaded down plexi from melting down. Makes sense more than for tonal reasons really when you eyeball it from common sense. Reduce the voltage... extend tube life... reduce heat and wear.
6ca7's? Take the dimed abuse just that much better.
Volume control? Its a fricken absolute must have!
Pieces fall into place here.
I listen to Vics peacemaker clips... into a considered shitty "hotplate" slaved... hmmmm....
Or Jnews clips?
Or what about the dingbat recent one from LLL??
Many slaved clips here.
And none of them really suck if you listen. They are all pretty damn juicy.

Now.... how many dorks over the years are lookin for the ONE amp to get THERE? Including me mind you. This might solve this issue about the magic marahall legend. It doesn't exist because it can't when its two amps and a load box. Nobody found it really as closely as slaving has. I have to be honest-there have been some astounding MV amp mod clips. Killer!
But none have smacked the bitch between the eyes like slaving. Best clips I ever heard are slaved or said to be slaved other than Marks. But.... then here is this....
I hate to even think of disrespecting mark in anyway.... but he made a shit ton of clips that just sounded amazing!
Yet he too.... on here.... talked about setting up a second head for "poweramp input". This was prior to the asskicking clips he started posting like mad. Seriously look it up. He had the load, the slave amp, and THE tone.
Efraser with his crazy pickup in the burnt JH lookin strat is one of the few I seen use the mod5 and get close to marks tone WITH the mod5. And what does efraser do now?? Slave??

[dirtycooter]

Like I stated... I am not gonna argue about things but my own detective work and facts and questions have me narrowed down to slaving two amps. Even LLL stated its not really that important the main head is SO spot on.
How many folks over the years took two plexis, a load, and a variac-made one plexi poweramp only??
Shit 90% of us are tweakin in one head let alone don't have a 2nd "plexi" to make into a poweramp.
I think the pics tell all start to finish. We heard a bunch of 12 series stock dimed. Some get closer than others this way.
But never as spot on as what I believe or know was possibly slaved.
Its like I can hear Mark laughing almost from above... with his little " ".
Because he DID have it set up and DID have a load and DID talk about makin a poweramp only 2nd marshall head.
All this clip and mod 5 shit only happened around the time he 1 did the lineout 2 did the poweramp in mod to a head 3 he had the load/powerbrake and 4 DID make a lineout box. Plus they were plexis and plexi power section.
Never heard another mod 5 sound like it did when he played it in clips.... ever! Why is that??
How can Vic get that close all those years before doin it that way and then we know mark had that same opportunity to do it that way... both dudes sound authentic as hell with mark being able to really play...

Am I crazy?

[EJSLPlexi]

Like I stated... I am not gonna argue about things but my own detective work and facts and questions have me narrowed down to slaving two amps. Even LLL stated its not really that important the main head is SO spot on.
How many folks over the years took two plexis, a load, and a variac-made one plexi poweramp only??
Shit 90% of us are tweakin in one head let alone don't have a 2nd "plexi" to make into a poweramp.
I think the pics tell all start to finish. We heard a bunch of 12 series stock dimed. Some get closer than others this way.
But never as spot on as what I believe or know was possibly slaved.
Its like I can hear Mark laughing almost from above... with his little " ".
Because he DID have it set up and DID have a load and DID talk about makin a poweramp only 2nd marshall head.
All this clip and mod 5 shit only happened around the time he 1 did the lineout 2 did the poweramp in mod to a head 3 he had the load/powerbrake and 4 DID make a lineout box. Plus they were plexis and plexi power section.
Never heard another mod 5 sound like it did when he played it in clips.... ever! Why is that??
How can Vic get that close all those years before doin it that way and then we know mark had that same opportunity to do it that way... both dudes sound authentic as hell with mark being able to really play...

Am I crazy?

On VH I i do not hear a single plexi dimed by itself, VH II yeah not a problem believing that,
but for VH i always thought it was slaved using a 50 watter as the preamp.
If eddie did not use 50 watters then what was one doing there in a few shots in the early days?