Franky's P.A.F ?

[dirtycooter]

All I can say re: A2 vs A5 is if Ed was playing an ash body with maple/maple neck through a plexi on 10, an A5 pickup I think has a greater chance of sounding really friggin' harsh(er) than an A2...unless all that cordage and FX mellowed that all out. To me the T-Top with the shorter or rough-cast or whatever it is A5 is in the middle and sounds great...but needs to be a little bit hotter.

EJSL -- cool info man tx!

But isn't this what michael anthony said in an interview? He thought it was kinda.... almost too bright? This kinda maybe makes a case for the A5 brighter mag type deal.
And yeah the cordage needs to be pondered on as well-Eds got some long lookin runs on stage shots. Gonna be some Eric Johnson effect goin on to a degree.

[Tone Slinger]

Well, if the short mags were standardized as A5 magnets by '60, then Ed's '61 paf HAD to have been an A5 (or MOST likely). That being the case, I'd think the pu would have to have been a bit hotter than the 9k of the '78. An a5 magnet in THAT type pu ('78)is just gonna be too scooped and bright,ESPECIALLY in a ash strat (Franky). Actually, a JB is a VERY early Van Halen sounding pu imo, regarding an A5 magnet type. Seymour was PUSHING that wind on near everybody at that time.The one thing that has always kept me from TOTALLY getting on board with that (JB) though is how well Ed cleaned up via the guitars volume. Then again, with his incremental signal chain and a non master 2 gain stager (plexi), your gonna clean up quite nicely regardless of the pu. To me, that Steven Rosen interview has Eds 'clean' tone sounding alot like a JB.....very warm and middy without any glass.

[TWANGGG]

Of course like a graphic eq boosted in some freq and not others lookin at the eq vs output spec could tell you not just the balance of a pickup eq but the amount of gain almost where it would be allocated to the slider.
High out put with tons of bass and no mid treble will sound most likely like a mud bomb. Like an eq with only the bass boosted. Likewise with a big mid range rating here instead would likely resemble kinda what we get doin the frown eq thing. So I kinda get tht aspect of the voice and drive. Output readings and eq balance seem to reflect easily in the soundclips and you can actually hear them match up to those specs respectively.

I've been wondering about some of those same things lately too DC so I started this project to compare the frequency response of some of the more popular pickups we talk about around here. To capture the raw output of these pickups the guitar was plugged directly in to my audio interface by the way.

Before I did this I felt like the Mighty Mite 1300 and Duncan Custom sounded pretty similar, and now we can see when it comes to frequency response they're very close.


This shows how much more high end a Super 70 has than a Duncan Custom.


Here I was comparing the Duncan Custom to another pickup I have that's a knockoff of a post-'61 slightly overwound PAF with a short A5 magnet wound to 8.4K. Again, quite a bit more high end with the lower output type pickups.

[dirtycooter]

I think it helps when one has the entire package to view the way a pickup will end up.
As in
Same spec 12series-basically stock, same tubes, speakers, signal path, etc. Without this it makes it really tough but I been watchin the guys pickup choices that are very close in this realm of accurate recreation.
When you got cascades and other mods the search goes out the window when you plug in because its all mixed up by then.
The Custom really has my attention here. The Suhr SSV Thorn or Barenuckles used for saner vh2 levels. DSD comes in about third to my ears so far. Super 70 I just haven't heard get IT.
So I am floatin around some PAF and or HO targets.
I wish I could see your pics. For some strange reason lately very few uploaded pics I can view anymore as they just come up as a box with a ? inside it. Sometimes they are viewable sometimes not.

But with the EQ thing.... its like pickup tonality really. You have strong and weak frequencies with a certain level. With an eq your gonna have to go a route that will introduce some noise and hiss with active elements where some of all that, if you can manipulate your pickup as precisely, you will be rewarded with much the same as an eq only passively and quietly.

So one has to figure the cable capacitance, fx buffers/capacitance, ep pre color, and possibly eq all creating tone shifts.
May be easier to come in from the VH2 side of tone and work toward VH1 as it sounds like more of a pure signal path for some reason to start with.

[Tone Slinger]

Here again, that Rosen interview is very telling as to Ed's Franky's tone. I just realized upon listening to that interview again, as well as confering with EJSLPlexi, that it retains ALOT of high end spank and clarity, yet, doesnt BOOM or distort when hit real hard. This then, rules out any JB type. You hear that WARMTH in the mids though. Not trying to continue to hype it but a '78 sounds just about like that. Same with a Pearly Gates(+) to a large degree.Its obviously an A2 magnet imo. On the second half of that interview you can tell how much warmer Rosen's '66 strat is compared to the Franky when Ed plugs it in (Rosens Strat). Thats Alder wood for ya.....sounds GREAT with 250k pots and single coils. As Ed is playing Rosens Strat 'plugged in', you can hear Rosen playing the Franky unplugged, no influence from the pickup/pot/amp at all......it is VERY bright. With a stock plexi (v1b 820/.68uf,v2a 2.7k/.68uf,.0022 bright ch. plate, etc) Ed VERY MOST LIKELY was boosting mids via that 6 band. The 12 band was additionally used on Eruption ? (to kick up the volume of the Univox ?, cause it sucked volume/tone ?)

[EJSLPlexi]

I wanted to say thanks to TWANGGG fr posting those graphs
You can see how a custom and 1300 are so similar it really would not matter through a distorted marshall
The super 70 is different of course with a lot of highs as is the PAF copy
But to see curve on the graphs is really cool and shows how each pu sound to one another.

[EJSLPlexi]

Here again, that Rosen interview is very telling as to Ed's Franky's tone. I just realized upon listening to that interview again, as well as confering with EJSLPlexi, that it retains ALOT of high end spank and clarity, yet, doesnt BOOM or distort when hit real hard. This then, rules out any JB type. You hear that WARMTH in the mids though. Not trying to continue to hype it but a '78 sounds just about like that. Same with a Pearly Gates(+) to a large degree.Its obviously an A2 magnet imo. On the second half of that interview you can tell how much warmer Rosen's '66 strat is compared to the Franky when Ed plugs it in (Rosens Strat). Thats Alder wood for ya.....sounds GREAT with 250k pots and single coils. As Ed is playing Rosens Strat 'plugged in', you can hear Rosen playing the Franky unplugged, no influence from the pickup/pot/amp at all......it is VERY bright. With a stock plexi (v1b 820/.68uf,v2a 2.7k/.68uf,.0022 bright ch. plate, etc) Ed VERY MOST LIKELY was boosting mids via that 6 band. The 12 band was additionally used on Eruption ? (to kick up the volume of the Univox ?, cause it sucked volume/tone ?)

Yeah that rosen interview is great to hear the pu without any distortion in the signal
It stays cleans even when eddie digs in to the strings telling me it is under 10K.
definitely not a 13K ceramic in it at that point.
The 78 even though it is a A2 pu is very bright, it is as bright as my '61 PAF with the short A5.
A2 is not always real rounded in the highs
The duncan Pearly gates and 78 prove that A2 can be used and still have the highs of a A5.
To me the 78 is a LOT like a lower output JB and custom custom
it has a tone like those other two high output models but is much closer to a PAF in output and dynamic
Has the punch and drive of the duncan CC and the harmonics and scream of the JB.
The real bottom line is that if eddie is using a pu at 9K he is definitely boosting the signal with thing along with the pu.
so since it was shown he used a Mxr EQ and Echoplex's a 9K can get the VH I drive.

[EJSLPlexi]

Timeline
The Custom comes on scene.... breifly labeled as THE pickup.

Over 20yrs later a complete polar opposite called the 78 flies up

Then as the Frankenstein EVH copy makes its debut... IM1 comes out. And again... a total polar opposite once more since the 78 specs were "found again".
SD cashes in on the pickup thing 6 ways from Sunday. Why did he have to steer away from EVH label and go 78? It is clear Ed dos not approve.

I dunno about you fellas but in my line of work, requiring real detective skills, all of this is not making sense. No matter which way you slice it the pieces do not fit. The statements, the lack of solid factual information which is totally left unconfirmed or able to be confirmed, the vagueness of everything surrounding the whole story comin out of Seymours side??

Well... somebody is lying. Its just that simple. Ed only was pissed about the Custom. And now he isn't pissed about the other two?? Get the f outta dodge. Seymour got his hands slapped way back in the beginning but doesn't now?
Also the fact we know the EVH camp protects everything it has pretty extensively as trademark/copywrite.

Its fishy fishy fishy fishy. Bundled conveniently and carefully into a finely woven web of confusion.

Again i have to say that duncan as a company really confuses me and DIRTYCOOTER brought up some real good points that i agree with.
Why would the 78 stay a total secret for all those years(from 1978-2001) and then out of nowhere many years later and only after a guy (who was not a celebrity of any sort) called duncans custom shop about making him a eddie van halen sounding pu come out as "the secret van halen pickup" to the rest of the public?
When others called the custom shop before 2001 they were told to get the
duncan custom or custom custom including myself.
and also in this thread of 20 important facts about seymour duncan NOT one mention of edward van halen
http://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/show ... ost3749260
You mean you wound the pu for a guy that rewrote rock guitar and is a rock guitar legend
(much more so than billy gibbons who is mentioned in that list!!) and dont want it known???
WTF is up with duncan and this 78?
I may love the 78 as a pu but have some real doubts about eddie ever using it due to all this BS with it popping out after 20+ years and the way they say don't associate it with any specific artist.etc.
Why not come clean if it were true, eddie ain't goin to be able to do jack shit legally about it as long as his actual name is not in the title of the product.

[EJSLPlexi]

Why did he have to steer away from EVH label and go 78? It is clear Ed dos not approve.

.

I was told by MJ of the custom shop that after EVH gear inc. started selling products under that name they(seymour duncan) could not legally call the pu the EVH but theres a real problem here
The so called EVH was not supposed to be called EVH. it was named "evenly voiced harmonics" by duncan and guys that bought one started abbreviating it EVH, so this leads to me asking, IF the pu was supposed to be called EVENLY VOICED HARMONICS" by
duncan as a selling name why did they have to change it?
that name"evenly voiced harmonics" has nothing to do with EVH gear inc.? you see what i am getting at?
here from duncans site
"What is the EVH Model?
There is no "EVH" pickup. There is, however, a custom shop pickup called the 78 Model, which some people abbreviate as "E.V.H.," because it offers evenly-voiced harmonics. The 78 Model pickup is a faithful recreation of the legendary low-output,..."

Now they are saying it offers evenly voiced harmonics??? before the name the 78, it was called evenly voiced harmonics but now it offers evenly voiced harmonics confused yet

[Tone Slinger]

I guess 'ONE' reason as to why this '78 hb'er wasnt celebrated earlier is the same as what MOST of believed back in the '80's....that Eddies MAGIC MARSHALL was modded. We now know it wasnt. But by that same token, a 'Custom' will immediatly kick a '78's ASS in 'immediate Gratification'. ANY guitar you put it in ran into ANY amp ('custom') and it is a noticable crunchy,harmonic-gain thing. The '78, not so much. Seymour Duncan, along with so many other companies were riding the hi-gain wave of the '80's, and truth be told,'MOST' guy's were actually starting to dig the whole 'modded Marshall/Soldano' hi gain thing at that time, even nudging out the classic early VH Brown Sound. Fast forward to the early millenium and the market is FULL circle. Guys got a little older and wiser and 'revisited' thier desire to get at Ed's early tone again and finally figured it all out. IMO, it is at THIS point that it made sense to spill the beans about that paf that Seymour rewound for Ed back in '77 (Vh1 was released in Feb. '78 though, thus "'78").

All I can say is that in my hard ash KnE Azusa ran into a amp with 'just' enough gain, this '78 very easily nails early Ed as close as I ever want to get. I may try and get a cellphone vid up to try and show what I'm percieving.

Oh yeah, ANOTHER reason for the delay in the truth being told about Ed's first Duncan rewind is the fact that Ed threatened a lawsuit or something to that effect on Seymour, I think ?

The dust has settled, and Seymour is worth more $$$ than Eddie, He (Seymour) has no reason to fib.

[EJSLPlexi]

Oh yeah, ANOTHER reason for the delay in the truth being told about Ed's first Duncan rewind is the fact that Ed threatened a lawsuit or something to that effect on Seymour, I think ?

.

The threat of a lawsuit from ed was over the duncan custom in the 79 GP mag ad not the 78
I think dirtycooter brought up some real good points and that has me really wondering now
seems that if dave szbados never called duncan in 2001 none of us would even know of a 78 or EVH.
why were others told to get a CC or custom when the asked what pu ed used in the strat?

[Tone Slinger]

I was told the SAME thing by a Duncan employee in like 2005 (Get a 'CC'). I was told that the 'CC' would be a BETTER match in a WIDER variety of guitars than the EVH/'78, or something to that effect, concerning the 'Brown Sound'. And you know what, that is a TRUE statement. The 'CC' IS the BROWNEST sounding pu out there, BUT, maybe TOO Brown (and Hot) for 'early' EVH tone. They (Duncan employee's) are VERY guarded. I'm very surprised you (EJSLPlexi) got any response from MJ.

Alls I can say is listen to the '77/'78 boots along with VhII and ESPECIALLY that Steven Rosen interview. I set the amp clean and its THAT tone (Rosen interview) all day long. Distort it and its very '78 sounding The '78 just has more of 'it' concerning that early Ed-tone that I cant see why it is so hard to believe that it is, in fact, THE pu type Ed's paf was wound to. Gotta also say, short mag or not, Ed's paf had an A2 in it Like mentioned earlier, an A5 or ceramic in that type pu 'thins its ankles' a bit too much.

[Tone Slinger]

I think there was still a variation on the magnet grade, be it late '50's long or early '60's short. In other words, SOME long mags were not A2 and SOME short mags were not A5. I think I read that from that guy in England who winds pickups (forget his companys name).

Bare Knuckle

[EJSLPlexi]

I was told the SAME thing by a Duncan employee in like 2005 (Get a 'CC'). I was told that the 'CC' would be a BETTER match in a WIDER variety of guitars than the EVH/'78, or something to that effect, concerning the 'Brown Sound'. And you know what, that is a TRUE statement. The 'CC' IS the BROWNEST sounding pu out there, BUT, maybe TOO Brown (and Hot) for 'early' EVH tone. They (Duncan employee's) are VERY guarded. I'm very surprised you (EJSLPlexi) got any response from MJ.

Alls I can say is listen to the '77/'78 boots along with VhII and ESPECIALLY that Steven Rosen interview. I set the amp clean and its THAT tone (Rosen interview) all day long. Distort it and its very '78 sounding The '78 just has more of 'it' concerning that early Ed-tone that I cant see why it is so hard to believe that it is, in fact, THE pu type Ed's paf was wound to. Gotta also say, short mag or not, Ed's paf had an A2 in it Like mentioned earlier, an A5 or ceramic in that type pu 'thins its ankles' a bit too much.

Duncan is their own worse enemy
they are the whole reason i have my suspicions.
The p'u itself is awesome but the guys that have said "eddie never used one" and that duncan is just using it as a money maker did bring up some valid points.
The biggest problem i have is the being kept a total secret until that dave szbados guy called up duncan?
that really reeks of WTF???
I mean what made him so special to be let in on this guarded secret and all of the rest of us guys did not get that same answer from duncan when we called? think about it
Did you know he was the only guy told about the EVH or 78 and everyone else was told to get something else prior to 2001?
One guy on another forum said the dave szbados was paid by duncan to write that story to promote the 78 as the secret VH pu as a money maker and in this money grubbing business world we live in i can believe that is what happened.

[Tone Slinger]

I see your point, and there may be quite a bit of 'back and forth' concerning the REAL TRUTH as to HOW and WHY 'ol Seymour finally got back to that original rewind he performed for Ed. Did he 'discover' the customer notes like that 2001 post by that Dave guy ? Did he get to INSPECT that original paf he rewound for Ed at a LATER date, jarring his memory ? etc, etc

One thing is certain, Ed's early Franky tone was a 'SUM OF ALL THE PARTS'. You gotta have an ash body,vintage Fender style tremolo bridge,500k pot and in my exp. a '78 spec hb'er. To me, the proof that the '78 is valid is its SOUND. So many of the vids (even the Duncan approved vid) showcase that pu in the wrong light, using floyds and alder bodies, etc. To me, only David Bray and Sean McFly have demoed it properly.