ITO Tones rockstah posted

[leadguy]

This is Ed's D chord (closer to Db?) in the RWTD iso's that we are talking about I presume.

This chord will have fundamental and overtone frequencies of all the notes in the chord and some will be of more strength than others.

Check this out for an explanation

http://www.bsharp.org/physics/guitar" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

so working out what frequencies are actually boosted by something like a EQ or amp or whatever and what are just occurring strength variations in the fundamental and overtones of all the notes due to other things, is hard to do unless it's something pretty obvious.

I'm using the term EQ below to describe how anything can alter and shape the frequency harmonic content of a tone.

The way the note is struck, the guitar body and neck EQ the pickup EQ the effects EQ''s the amp EQ the speakers EQ the mics EQ the post processing EQ etc etc can all alter how the actual frequency harmonic content of a tone ends up and trying to source what did what to the frequency harmonic content of a tone is a maze.
Spectrum Analysis has limitations.

Someone can play a D chord and then do a frequency analysis on it and then introduce something like the MXR EQ and then play the D chord again trying to play it in the same way as before and then see the frequency analysis change but getting audio from something like Ed's RWTD and then trying to work out what Ed's pickup did and what the amp did and what the post EQ did etc to the frequency content in the frequency analysis, well.

Another thing to do is to play a note and do a frequency analysis of it and then play the same note wiyth a different right hand attack, ie harder, more pinched, different pick angle etc and then do a frequency analysis of it and see what changed from the first note.
We all know about Ed's right hand, and Ed's right hand (and his left as well) is responsible for how some of the harmonic content ends up at any given time and no one has really got the exact right hand attack etc of someone else so that's a tone changer right there before we get to any gear.

Some general things can be picked up after the fact by frequency analysis, like how much of the frequency content is in the mids etc and the sign of the speakers frequency rolloff, just general things really.

btw check out the MXR 6 band EQ and the Maxon/Ibanez GE601 EQ, very similar circuits

[Good Guest]

Those 2 schematics are not identical...and there are diferances that affect tone...ie right of the bat there is an extra opamp and a buffer on one but not the other...totally misleading ...and there is more

Sure the fundamental note is strong and the harmonics fall off accordingly to zero not the other way around,,,altho if the fundamental goes into feedback or say a pinch harmonic is created that may be differant...but generally the harmonics decay over time to nothing and in no way they increase like they do in these clips analyzed unless boosted...remember in order for the frequency to be boosted it has to exist....the mxr 6 band isn't creating fundamental tones...if anything it's boosting them.


Anyways here are the entire spectrums for the celestian and jbl ....and no there aren't any profound discovery's to be made ...really we don't even know if the so called jbl clip is in fact a jbl or a mic position...Cary is right ...a more detailed look at the celestian is in order. But looky looky there is that 1.2khz spike in the celestian

RWYDSpecCELJBL.jpg (228.52 KiB) Viewed 4224 times

Here is another just of the Celestian and differant spectrum analyzer: And looky looky again the 1.2 khz.... Just for informative purposes 1.2 khz corresponds to the D# note on the 23rd fret of the high "E" string...

RWTDCelSpec.jpg (123.08 KiB) Viewed 4140 times

[cary chilton]

....

[StuntDouble]

yes indeed. for shits and giggles i put the mxr back to stock after playing it all day.... this mod is a must i have to say.
Thanks!
Mark

Yup; I just did it. My amp is so stinking load with no attenuator and the new 2 O.T. in it, I only got a few mins with it, before my wife opened the garage door and gave me that look, but this mod is cool.

[cary chilton]

Interesting, the second analyzer shows first major peak @ 80Hz which corresponds to the open low E.
Then it drops off (Drops from F to F# range) lot until a peak @ 100Hz and that freq would be your G on the 6th string on the 3rd fret.

Then, a tiny peak @ 138 Hz which is in the range of C# on the A string, third fret. Then a radical drop @ 139Hz? and the band climbs up slowly (D-D# on 5ths string, 5-6frets). Then there is a peak @ 168Hz and this is around your E on the A string, 7th fret.

Substantial drops at 185-8 Hz ( again F# but 8th fret on the A string) and 205-8Hz (G# two fret higher up).

Then a major peak @ 240Hz Comfortable low mid, warm like the B note on 3rd string on the 3rd fret.

Then @ 270-280Hz (middle C) there is a sizeable drop (280 is a boxy sounding area). Also @ 320Hz (E above middle C)there is a little peak where drops again until 350-360 Hz (F# above middle C) where there is a little peak.

Then it drops, until a bigger spike @ 400Hz, drops again until 440-8Hz (G# and A above middle C, 8-9fret on B string)
Then there is a cascade of drops esp @ 520Hz (C octave above middle C) and radical spike @ 548 (C#) and holds until 660Hz ( High E, 12th Fret).

Then there is a radical dip at around 790-830Hz (which is around highest G on the High E string), but @ 900-930Hz there is a sizeable peak (Highest A#). Suddenly, there is a huge drop @ 1kHz( between B highest B and C)
Then @ 1.2kHz highest D-D# on the High E there is a huge peak.

Also at 1.4 there is a substantial dip,(a would be F @ imaginary 25th Fret, high E ).

Another drop @ 2.8kHz followed by a peak at around 3.8kHz (pick attack area!)


That's it for my analysis...

[leadguy]

In a mix of note overtones and mixer EQ's and other things, I'm not going to be too definite about any of this except to say that the celestion 5kHz rolloff appears to be there.
I mean you could say that this person has a near 1.25kHz spike as well http://www.bsharp.org/physics/guitar" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
All I said or should have said was the MXR and Ibanez/Maxon are similar in basic gyrator design, I think Maxon might have looked at the MXR circuit but the gyrator design was just standard stuff anyway.

[Good Guest]

Interesting, the second analyzer shows first major peak @ 80Hz which corresponds to the open low E.
Then it drops off (Drops from F to F# range) lot until a peak @ 100Hz and that freq would be your G on the 6th string on the 3rd fret.

Then, a tiny peak @ 138 Hz which is in the range of C# on the A string, third fret. Then a radical drop @ 139Hz? and the band climbs up slowly (D-D# on 5ths string, 5-6frets). Then there is a peak @ 168Hz and this is around your E on the A string, 7th fret.

Substantial drops at 185-8 Hz ( again F# but 8th fret on the A string) and 205-8Hz (G# two fret higher up).

Then a major peak @ 240Hz Comfortable low mid, warm like the B note on 3rd string on the 3rd fret.

Then @ 270-280Hz (middle C) there is a sizeable drop (280 is a boxy sounding area). Also @ 320Hz (E above middle C)there is a little peak where drops again until 350-360 Hz (F# above middle C) where there is a little peak.

Then it drops, until a bigger spike @ 400Hz, drops again until 440-8Hz (G# and A above middle C, 8-9fret on B string)
Then there is a cascade of drops esp @ 520Hz (C octave above middle C) and radical spike @ 548 (C#) and holds until 660Hz ( High E, 12th Fret).

Then there is a radical dip at around 790-830Hz (which is around highest G on the High E string), but @ 900-930Hz there is a sizeable peak (Highest A#). Suddenly, there is a huge drop @ 1kHz( between B highest B and C)
Then @ 1.2kHz highest D-D# on the High E there is a huge peak.

Also at 1.4 there is a substantial dip,(a would be F @ imaginary 25th Fret, high E ).

Another drop @ 2.8kHz followed by a peak at around 3.8kHz (pick attack area!)


That's it for my analysis...

WOW ....nice analysis...but yeah I think yer getting it. All those guitar strings twanging away are pretty well under 1khz and when you look at the spectrum you see lots of activity and gain in those areas...but how can there be spikes at 1khz 2 khz etc ...That's the overtones from those low frequency frets &strings ..BUT they should be falling of rapidly and not producing huge spikes ...those huge spikes are boosted by the eq...the eq sees a 1.2Khz and amplifies it and only it....hence a spike.

Pick attack area 3.8khz That's a great example too because the overtones will be in the 7.6khz range and you wouldn't even notice that 7.6Khz unless it was boosted by an eq tuned to that frequency and because it isn't boosted it is not anything pronounced... Here are some more spectrummms showing the the 1.2Khz boost.

These are from the GH iso tracks guitar channel ...and say plenty ..look how the pick attack shows up nicely...and the @2.5khz presence from the amp...These raw guitar hero gyuitar iso's are a real goldmine of info .

ATBLspectrummm.jpg (43.51 KiB) Viewed 4080 times

SGMADSpectrummm.jpg (51.42 KiB) Viewed 4080 times

UNCHAINEDSpectrumm.jpg (46.12 KiB) Viewed 4080 times

[TWANGGG]

Having spent way more time than any sane person would comparing the "blackpage" RWTD raw iso's to the Guitar Hero tracks and the different album cut versions I could get hold of, please let me throw this in to the mix here.

I've time aligned all the clips mentioned above in a Sonar project so it makes it really easy to get a close look at what's going on. Here is what I have figured out so far...

This shot is the RWTD GH guitar track in green, and the "blackpageproductions+rwtdcelestion" iso clip in red:

Celestion RWTD iso (Small).JPG (58.55 KiB) Viewed 4074 times

Not very close, huh?

Now look how the GH track again in green, compares to the "blackpageproductions+rwtdjbl" iso clip in red:

JBL RWTD iso (Small).JPG (58.06 KiB) Viewed 4074 times

From 6K up you can see the eq spectrum curves match, they just differ in amplitude. I think that's likely due to either eq adjustments during mixing at Sunset Sound, or some eq'ing done to the GH tracks in production.

Because of what I see, and hear, when comparing this so called "JBL" iso track, I am convinced it alone is the source for the guitar track we hear on VH1. Just add the Sunset reverb chamber and it's there. Also, when I pan this raw iso to one side, and the album cut to the other they cancel out partially because they are so close. I think they would completely cancel if it weren't for the file compression they've passed through.

[leadguy]

Well everything has some sort of EQ effect. The amp is cutting the lower frequencies for Ed's amp circuit just by the cathode resistor/capacitor pairs and then there is the tonestack. The Echoplex does it's EQ thing, the Phase would do it's EQ thing, the MXR or Boss EQ would do it's EQ thing if one was used, the speakers and cabinets, there are studio EQ's and PA EQ's used live, there is mic position, there are the mics themselves and the studios preamps, there is the studio or live venue acoustics, all of these things are not transparent to the originating signal from the guitar pickup but alter the signals EQ.

Some things are going to have more effect than others but how do you separate the overtone effect of say a EQ boost and a amp when the EQ boosts some frequencies and the amp also boosts some frequencies with some of the boosted EQ and amp circuit/tonestack frequencies being in common, and the overtone strengths are at least a combination of the EQ boost and amp let alone all of the other gear having an effect on the overtones?

Separating all this into what does what to what fundamental and overtones, well good luck.

Even pickup position and height and picking technique can alter overtones and then there is the phase shift as the signal passes through everything which might have some effect as well.

This is one of the limitations with frequency analysis when it's used on an audio signal that goes through a lot of things to get to it's final form.
It's not that easy to say what part caused what.

That's why I'm not definite about too much at all.

Anyway I'm opting out of all this.

Taxi.

[Good Guest]

It looks like the celestian was used for the highend and the jbl used for the low end of the guitar track...which is opposite to what you would think listening to them independantly...as the celestian sounds low passed and the jbl sounds high passed in the iso's.....this could be mic placement as some suggest..because the furthur away you place the mic the more lows you get as it takes distance to create the low frequency sound waves and a close mic will pick up short distance waves (highs) making long waves irrevelant. It's starting to look like a 2 mic clip with those spectrums ..good job

[TWANGGG]

It looks like the celestian was used for the highend and the jbl used for the low end of the guitar track...which is opposite to what you would think listening to them independantly...as the celestian sounds low passed and the jbl sounds high passed in the iso's.....this could be mic placement as some suggest..because the furthur away you place the mic the more lows you get as it takes distance to create the low frequency sound waves and a close mic will pick up short distance waves (highs) making long waves irrevelant. It's starting to look like a 2 mic clip with those spectrums ..good job

Please take another look at that second shot above comparing the jbl and guitar hero clips. Some high shelf eq is all it takes to get the two practically identical in both sight, via spectrum analysis, and sound, via my ears(you can trust the spectrum ). I'm just throwing it out there that the so-called jbl track alone was the source for RWTD.

I realize I'm not a pro sitting at a mixing console at Sunset Sound, but try as I might I just can't get any combination of the jbl and celestion clips to sound like the album track.

[Good Guest]

It looks like the celestian was used for the highend and the jbl used for the low end of the guitar track...which is opposite to what you would think listening to them independantly...as the celestian sounds low passed and the jbl sounds high passed in the iso's.....this could be mic placement as some suggest..because the furthur away you place the mic the more lows you get as it takes distance to create the low frequency sound waves and a close mic will pick up short distance waves (highs) making long waves irrevelant. It's starting to look like a 2 mic clip with those spectrums ..good job

Please take another look at that second shot above comparing the jbl and guitar hero clips. Some high shelf eq is all it takes to get the two practically identical in both sight, via spectrum analysis, and sound, via my ears(you can trust the spectrum ). I'm just throwing it out there that the so-called jbl track alone was the source for RWTD.

I realize I'm not a pro sitting at a mixing console at Sunset Sound, but try as I might I just can't get any combination of the jbl and celestion clips to sound like the album track.

Well I think you just hit a home run and I totally agree...just on ears alone if you shelf @6k on the jbl there it is.. an it doesn't matter what is done to the celestian... nothing can help that clip....so It looks like the so called jbl is the clip..the real proof would be an a spec analysis of a shelved jbl compared to the iso...and my ears are telling me there going to be identical.

But darn its new years party time....gone for a few days now.......

[cary chilton]

Goodguest, cool! Is your MXR mod 1.266? I noticed on these that that varies a bit 1.226, 1.255 1.266 ... Have you check any more clips for more variations?

Sorry is blackpageproductions+rwtdcelestion the Dave F clip?



Happy New Year guys!

[TWANGGG]

Goodguest, cool! Is your MXR mod 1.266? I noticed on these that that varies a bit 1.226, 1.255 1.266 ... Have you check any more clips for more variations?

Sorry is blackpageproductions+rwtdcelestion the Dave F clip?



Happy New Year guys!

Cary, yes "blackpageproductions+"etc. are I believe the Dave F clips. That was the file name of the clips when I downloaded them from a post here anyway.

Best of luck in the New Year to you!

[cary chilton]

Twaang, cool analysis. I think the JBL provides the sheen and the zing of VH1's sound. 2.5kHz and up the highs freq band is MATCHED and about 4-6dB higher than the celestion. I personally think that is the biggest factor here. VH1 maybe ALL JBL or 70% JBL? Tough to say, TEd or Don could have easily carved out anything on the celestion that they didn't want, but in general, most engineers love to blend at least different mics (if not amps, speakers etc) making a comp track for the final source sound.