"Frequency Response/EQ Matching" Ed's Plexi

[sine_wave]

I've never been much into digital emulations of analog gear, but for fun I listened to some Axe-FX videos on Youtube the other day.
Wow! There were a couple that totally nailed it! Sure, there were plenty that missed the mark quite a bit but it became evident to me that the frequency response of Ed's plexi is really the thing that would make the difference between a person either "getting it" or not. I think far too much attention has been paid to things like distortion level, because you could have Bogner levels of distortion in your plexi but without nailing or getting in the ballpark of Ed's frequency spectrum (aka EQ profile) your amp will just sound like just another high gain amp.

It's interesting how guys like Suhr and Friedman have made amps with frequency response that are super close to Ed's. I know that there are "instruments" out there for serious EEs to do things like analyze the frequency curve/response of "x" circuit. I am by no means saying that either DF or JS did this. I'm only saying that IMO they are two guys that have produced amps that come closest (or maybe better that "come closest") to the actual tone of EVH's Marshall.

For the rest of us… There are tutorials on Youtube on how to match the EQ of "x" soundbite to another using things like Izotope Ozone, etc. I suppose that's kind of similar to what those amp modelers/profilers do.
Here's the interesting bit though… It would be real clever if we could use one of those EVH ISO tracks to get a "picture" of what Ed's amp looks like EQ-wise by using one of those many apps. We would acquire a "profile" so to speak of what the EQ curve of his amp looks like. Now… Knowing how to make changes in our amps in order to make them closer/closest to the EVH profile/EQ curve would be very interesting. I'm not saying this is a sure thing or that it would even work (maybe it would, or at least get us closer). I'm just saying, I think frequency curves/response is really where it's at when it comes to copping that tone!

Cheers,
John

[jnew]

Hi John,
In a sense, I think of capturing said frequency response by what I hear. And from there, going on behind what I'm hearing as the final product, or album, because we all know post production can make this whole thing a total shell game. But hints are there like picks scrapes, pickup chirps, hissing during breaks, etc. Things that I don't think digital sampling and analization could accurately paint for you. Even if so, you still have to build the amp circuit to do that. And that's what we do hear to begin with.
I think for apple to apple blueprint accuracy in what your talking about, the amps we build would have to be recorded at Sunset Sound with 1176 post, onto 2" tape with what and how Templeman/Landee worked their stuff and all the other stuff involved. No?

[JimiJames]

yesyes, There are also threads with members showing spectrum's and comparing peaks & valleys in other areas.
Cool stuff and very useful.
Here's one: http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php ... 57#p333811

[fhn_lopes]

There's also one from Ralle (I can't find it) where he says something to the effect of, "instead of high gain being the key to Ed's tone, it's more about boosting a couple of key frequencies..." in the EVH amp builder section from a couple of years back.

Truer words were never spoken.

TWANGGG did some awesome post EQ treatment to some clips of mine, huge difference. I'd look over his threads to begin with. Very cool stuf indeed.

[Megaro]

There's also one from Ralle (I can't find it) where he says something to the effect of, "instead of high gain being the key to Ed's tone, it's more about boosting a couple of key frequencies..." in the EVH amp builder section from a couple of years back.

Truer words were never spoken.

I would like to hear the specifics of the frequencies to be boosted because I also think this is bang on. Whether it was due to
something before the amp, the amp itself, post-production, a combination of some or all -- heck, I don't care.

Listen to this clip I made of a brief part of the ISO track from "I'm The One". Something is going on with this tone that is so
different. I can get a rough approximation with my Empress ParaEQ with the boost and some treble highlights, but I am not
adept enough to say it is this frequency or that frequency.

https://soundcloud.com/megaro/imtheoneboostedend

You will need a player that handles .flac files. I like VLC media player. Ed seems a little out of tune here (end of the song)
his playing is super aggressive, but the tone has sort of a "crust" on the upper mids and treble that it makes me think of some
kind of EQ / treble boost. Again, I am not trying to get into what exactly what was going on in the studio in the late 70's, just trying to figure out how to capture the sheer awesomeness of this tone. It is bass shy, especially when compared to
Unchained. But man is Ed rocking out hard on this one.

[JimiJames]

yeayea, that's the thread I was thinking of MM !

... and a to TWANGGG

Digital eyes a partnership with analog ears

[Strat78]

I'm not sure if frequency is the issue with the iso ITO track, its more about the amp being slammed up front and distortion blocking. Or maybe it's the Big Muff.

[guitar007]

Those ISO tracks also seem to have a lot of post-amp added presence.

[echoplexi1974]

67 Melody Maker wrote:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_so ... D=10034480
here's mark after modding an MXR 6-band to boost 1.2Khz

...was he using a Dimarzio SuperDistortion on this? Anyone know

god was Mark a killer on guitar or what So good...

[sine_wave]

Ralle where he says something to the effect of, "instead of high gain being the key to Ed's tone, it's more about boosting a couple of key frequencies..."

Wow! So I'm not completely crazy then (maybe).
It gives me hope/confidence that another forum member (especially one as fanatical as Ralle!) has already come up with the "theory" that it's possibly more about the frequencies than the high gain. I think the "atypical" high gain achieved on VH1 and VH1 only is what has baffled people. Weird thing is too is that Ed never "used" that type of tone ever again on any of the first 6 albums. For me, his VH2 gain & tone represented "Ed's sound" as every record that followed it contained either the same tone or one extremely like it. Fair Warning was the first exception with the pronounced midrange boost (maybe due to using a different PUP, maybe it was the engineer?) as well as it being the first album Ed used the Eventide H910 Harmonizer (I think he used 2 of them). Actually, the rhythm parts on "Unchained" sound very much like all of the other records that came before (excluding VH1).

That graph of Mark's signal vs Ed's was impressive! Seemed like some small discrepancies cropped up in the higher frequencies but they didn't look too drastic (without being able to magnify it's hard to tell just how much they were off by). I listened to the clip and observed the graph but I also seem to remember him mentioning that the amp he used on that clip was a metal face, converted to Plexi-spec. Which I suppose goes to show that having an amp with that "spec" will get you there. Has anyone tried a similar thing using the values that Dave Friedman posted? I wonder how close those can get you… I'd wager, in the ballpark if not way closer. And I'll say it again… Friedman and Suhr have the most impressive amps when it comes to "EVH frequency matched tone". Check this video to see what I'm talking about. All of us here have THE tone in our heads well enough to make fair to very accurate comparisons:
Start this one at 14:00 into the clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HlmLdsqXZc

It's amazing how with the DSD PUP he manages to cop a pretty damn good approximation of the fabled VH1 tone. Then when he switches to another guitar with a "PAF-type" PUP he easily cops VH2 tone. Anyone else think that that video is amazing?!! BTW, it's well documented that Ed used PAFs in almost every guitar he used. I even heard Paul Unkert say that back when he was building guitars for him, he had a drawer full of PAFs and he would install them into the "Kramers" that he made for Ed (including the famed 5150).
Here's the second video, definitely has more of a VH2 sound:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4RczCs8G8g

After listening closely to those videos, don't you hear that special, extra something? To put it simply, I hear the "voice" of Ed's amp in both of them.

BTW, I also think that things like strings (gauge) and the thickness of the pick one uses can have a large amount to do with it. And yeah, to really cop that tone it certainly helps to have Ed's "feel" down pretty good. I think that's one of the several things that make Mark A's clips sound great… He really knew how to "sound" like Ed.

- John

[plexified]

Not trying to rock the boat here , but as a non EE as Glenn pointed out , I think the factor is the 'small' output transformer here. He burned it up . And remember its the most rare . None left for him to aquire. Its the reason of the huge tone with squish and it has a moderate volume between a 50 and a large output 100 watter. It sags under full volume where the others do not creating almost impossible replications. Its in between a tube rectifier and solid state rectifier. It is also very unforgiving to modifications in the preamp. It retains its character whether you hyper mod the pre amp or not. And again with low wattage single cabs , period correct , like a single 20w cab or 25w cab are very impressive. It also lends to the BS of needing to lower the volume . Its perfect to play with an animal drummer like Al. You do not want to turn down here as you will not be heard . So that's a fact jack . Think about it .
Now you have to re amp to get more volume if you turn down to 90 volts or less . Its very simple . Use the stock 12 series transformer in the 12 series and your tapped out volume wise. You need additional power to compete with Al .

[sine_wave]

plexified… thanks for the input brother. I must admit, I'm taken aback just a bit simply because I've never heard about this OT entering "the mix". I'm not saying it's not so, I've just never heard about it from anyone on this forum (guys like Dave and John, etc) who have seen every bit of that grail head, plus I've never heard Ed say a single word about it (not even in a typically misleading Ed sort of way). Do you know something we don't? I'm really interested in your info about the OT affecting the sound. Doesn't seem too off-base to think of how a smaller OT could create tonal changes.

Have you tried using a 50W x-former with a 12 Series Plexi? What were the results?
One last thing has me stumped… "None left for him to acquire"? The '70s and '80s must've been amazing for people with re$ources and a bit of foresight. Look at the smart guys that knew to buy up as many '59 Gibson LPs as they could. It just seems weird to me that Eddie, a guy that by '82 or so was already behind the wheel(s) of Ferraris and Lambos couldn't find another OT for his amp? Even if it's a rare OT, it should be possible. If I was Eddie and wanted one badly enough I'd buy a Plexi with a serial close to mine and rip the OT out of it. Didn't he do that recently so that Friedman could install all of the "correct" wiring back into his amp? I don't know… Sounds interesting but slightly implausible. There's always the option that I'm wrong too!

- J

Not trying to rock the boat here , but as a non EE as Glenn pointed out , I think the factor is the 'small' output transformer here. He burned it up . And remember its the most rare . None left for him to aquire. Its the reason of the huge tone with squish and it has a moderate volume between a 50 and a large output 100 watter. It sags under full volume where the others do not creating almost impossible replications. Its in between a tube rectifier and solid state rectifier. It is also very unforgiving to modifications in the preamp. It retains its character whether you hyper mod the pre amp or not. And again with low wattage single cabs , period correct , like a single 20w cab or 25w cab are very impressive. It also lends to the BS of needing to lower the volume . Its perfect to play with an animal drummer like Al. You do not want to turn down here as you will not be heard . So that's a fact jack . Think about it .
Now you have to re amp to get more volume if you turn down to 90 volts or less . Its very simple . Use the stock 12 series transformer in the 12 series and your tapped out volume wise. You need additional power to compete with Al .

[plexified]

Hello all ,
First , your asking quality questions. I would say that you have to imagine a lineage. Marshall cloned a Fender Bassman with the mistake of having the output reversed. In your case your wondering about the EVH tone and where it came from . With the lineage you have a tube rectified 50 watter Bluesbreaker throwing the cones to the wall. Next you have Pete Townesend asking for ammo. He got it , a 100 watter with a matching cab containing eight 20 watt speakers housed in a cab that was several hundred pounds spanning a 30 inch wide and some six feet high. Look at t he schematics and look at the starting point and the end point which would be early 70's. It should all make sense if you know the routine here.

[sine_wave]

Hey plexi mate,

Yeah, I know the 'ole Paedo Townshend/Marshall story well, it's a crazy one! Yes, everything you wrote is true (Bassman, PT asking for more power, etc). But, like you, I'm an Ed freak and I'm going nuts for more info on this OT thing… Timeline? Before VHI? If you don't mind… where'd you find this out? I only ask because I've been digging on Ed and VH since I was 11 and I thought I heard/knew everything at this point about his magic bag of tricks.

Also, I assume you're saying this happened pre-VHI (if not, correct me please). I'm curious why he didn't rent another amp if his OT blew and furthermore, I'm curious why it would only give "that sound" on VHI and none of the subsequent albums? For me? Nothing beats the smooth overdrive-like "brown" Ed achieves on that album. It pretty much stayed that way until FW (with minor variances).

BTW, not to change the topic, but lately I've been loving those pecky mids in Ed's tone on FW. Used to turn me off to the otherwise amazing album.

- JJ

Hello all ,
First , your asking quality questions. I would say that you have to imagine a lineage. Marshall cloned a Fender Bassman with the mistake of having the output reversed. In your case your wondering about the EVH tone and where it came from . With the lineage you have a tube rectified 50 watter Bluesbreaker throwing the cones to the wall. Next you have Pete Townesend asking for ammo. He got it , a 100 watter with a matching cab containing eight 20 watt speakers housed in a cab that was several hundred pounds spanning a 30 inch wide and some six feet high. Look at t he schematics and look at the starting point and the end point which would be early 70's. It should all make sense if you know the routine here.