Ain't Talkin' ... clip

[awangotango]

..... to expand on the bass knob....you'll know when you have the 'low end' of the circuit dialed in right when the bass knob does not reduce the bass so much as it increases the low mids. Meaning the bass will be cut off by circuit, tube, and volume choices and so the bass knob will have nothing to reduce and it will then only affect the low mids. And since ED had a ton of low mids (no bass), you should have the feeling of wanting to crank the bass knob. In contrast, alot of stock SL's you tend to have the feeling of wanting to lower the bass knob. When you feel this you know you don't have the circuit, tubes, or speakers dialed in. This is such a key point I cannot stess it enough. People gloss over this point but the distinction between bass and low mids is key. I'm amazed at how people cannot hear that all the old clapton, page eddie etc tones had ZERO bass compared to what alot of guys use after 1990. The only classic guy I can recall that had any bass is hendrix and that was only on certain albums. It was then all midrange through the 70's and early 80's. then bass increased gradually through the 80's and is now a full blown addiction most people don't even realize they have. The old tones had no bass. Part is from running at higher volumes, as I mentioned earlier, basss rolls off natuarally as volume is increased. Listen to kossoff, he used bass specs and bass cones and still his tone has no bass but it does have a ton of low mids . Listen to either of the two clips I posted (the ratt and Heaven) the heaven is a pure superlead metal panel tone and has no bass and not much low mids, the ratt is a mix of superlead plexi and metal and has no bass but a substantial amount of low mids ......I'm sure they had the volumes up for both recordings, but the other part is tube, speaker, and circuit choice and it's not the obvious .1 output caps either because alot of the old guys used superbasses. It's from speaker choice/pickup/ and other areas of the circuit, where you can chop bass off at the knees. so this should be a guiding principle while dialing in any amp, the only others being aware at all times when the amp starts losing it's grip and then there is the upper end chime aspect. Regarding losing it's grip. Ed's amp is loose through the upper mids and top but pretty together down in the low mids (remember it has no bottom). So it takes some experimentation with your particular set of trannies, speakers and pickup to find where in the circuit to loosen and what tightens. But because we know it's stock spec, all we have to do is tweek things up or down from stoc a bit and it all adds up pretty quick. And we also have elimiated the tone controls as a variable becauase they are all jacked. Speaker choice should also be elimated as a variable by now imo, and it's the G12M, preferable well used. Not scumbaks neither. The one's I had sounded flat to my ears. If you think you got a good one, then keep it otherwise, Get at least one original celestion to put a mic on, it can be a '03 cone, a RIC cone or a 1777 cone . all lead cones. amzingly they are still on ebay for $250. If necessary use a receation of a '03 cone but try a few different ones and make sure they are broken in with minimal to moderate edge doping.


ps. that ratt clip was well documented as to what they used, it was a metal panel stock and a plexi stock and and old ratty looking worn out checkered marshall cab. Based on what I hear I suspect it was RIC cones because that big fat warm rich midrange is what my RIC cones have in spades. I also suspect triumph allied forces is RIC cone. They were only made in 74 in house at celestion. Someone should recreate that speaker imo. I am not at all certain that ed did not use that speaker for his darker albums (fair warning and womens)


and if you still cannot find a way to use a SL without a master or attenuator, I suggest that is the first thing one should address. The only solution I found is running on two tubes and two speakers. The volume in that setup is perfect. If you use original speakers you will want to insert a resistor in line to take a bit of the heat, and try a few different ones because they sound different. I ended up with the adjustable coiled ones .


and as far as what specs to start with I like ralle's and Df;s which I recall as the filtering mentioned a few posts back, .1's in the outputl, split V1, 22n lead caps, stock mixer and Ch I volume bright caps (with NOS ceramic caps), medium to high feedback ala '67/8.....the bigger bass caps is what helps get the low mids. You chop the bass of elsewhere in your rig. If you wanted the tone in the heaven clips I'd go with the smaller 2n2 caps, everything else the same.

[Strat78]

Remember this, thats why we like to hang out here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9DIS7hZDE4

[efraser68]

Remember this, thats why we like to hang out here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9DIS7hZDE4

Wow, fun to go back and hear Ralph's setup now. I'm guessing he's tamed down the gain maybe a tad but incredibly awesome. Phil, time for you to give us a YouTube tour of your rig(s).

[Strat78]

Just to clarify, I would never presume to give Rob advise, he is one of the original Godfathers here, and one of the best writers I have ever crossed paths with! Whoah, my workshop is not so photogenic right now, nor am I.

[dirtycooter]

So true about the low end bass bein not what people today expect.
Most people don't get it when I say "its only loud when the mid range shakes your pant legs".
Then they hear my plexi and go

Todays guitar tones leave you wondering where the bass guitar is or if there is one at all. Its all crossed over.

[Tone Slinger]

So true about the low end bass bein not what people today expect.
Most people don't get it when I say "its only loud when the mid range shakes your pant legs".
Then they hear my plexi and go

Todays guitar tones leave you wondering where the bass guitar is or if there is one at all. Its all crossed over.

I TOTALLY agree. I love playing WITH a bass player. The ensemble unison between the two instruments (guitar & bass) is MUCH greater than 'just' having a 'SLUDGE and FUDGE' bottom end heavy guitar. I dont mind having a 40 guage for my low E

[awangotango]

ralle had some great clips WAY back before he smoked that original OT. In particular one of his original tunes from that period stands out as being exceptional. I would know the clip and tune if i heard it but it's not coming to me right yet. I know he had the simple jose master/cascade on the amp at that time. very much like steve vai's famous early marshall jose he used on the alcatraz album with the black cover.


I wonder if the old tone (with cut off bass) will ever come back into style. I just don't know if the kids are hip enough to even know what we are talking about frankly. I mean if you haven't lived it or if you can't notice that all the old records had no bass in the lead guitar tone, you would never think to focus on dialing in a smooth overdriven marshall midrange tone. But that was the recipe. Once bass started creeping in it changed everything to my ears. Listening to vinyl women and children right now . whoa nelly is that some midrange tone ! And there's plenty of room for the kick drum and mike to do their things.

[stef]

The most important question I'd have for Ted T is did he cut off lots of bass after the fact. Every producer EQs the recorded tracks more or less.... Producers back in the 70's did not want much bass in the guitar sound, hence you can't hear it in Kossof's sound but it was there I'm sure, just cut off after the fact

[awangotango]

regarding ed, all one needs to do is listen to live clips from the era. there is no bass to be found. period.Plus direct experience has shown that you cannot get a SL dimed if there is bass. It's flub city especially into the speakers he used (M's) so chopping bass at the knees is a prerequisite for getting Ed's tone. There is no way around it. Just accept it ! Addictions are hard to kick and bass ain't no diff. Lucky for me I never liked it and never bought the salespitch.

This is a shitty clip no doubt from a CD, but it still tells the story. revisit ed on vinyl if yo're not already
This is all midrange - ain't no bass nowhere
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25Ca7B33KX8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TJUi8saSMM


and remember, his shitty pedalboard sucked even more bass out than what I prefer. You can get ed's tone but better imo by limiting your rig to no pedals or just an eq or the phase. Still the amp and teh rest of teh rig is dialed in the same with this mantra of bass chopping and minimal preamp distortion running through your head



as for koss, listen here. Unless the guy at the board is cutting off his bass, the answer is clear, no bass in his tone. And if he used the big drake OT, his amp has even less than the dagnall OT. The big drake is truly and all mids transformer if there ever was one. Dagnal can produce more bass but of course we don't want it so the goal is to cut it. You can dial a amp to get ed's tone with the drake and it may even be easier because there less bass to chop off to start with. Either way, nothing is necessary to get eds tone. You don't need his exact self lead ot, exact circuit, exact pedals etc. You do need the speakers the right pickup, the preamp tubes, the basic circuit and then tweek it all by ear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciRKHai3JDI