True bypass vs. Vintage

[jnew]

Fuck me! I really like that. Hmm.

[mightymike]

You could slice bread on that fucker.

[jnew]

You could Swiss the shit out of some cheese too.

Looked at them online. Not to cheap by any means but sure looks cool.

[JimiJames]

Found this in my travels. Seems like they're related to each other or keep in mind... Not a looper, but an amp effects loop.

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:44 am- Suhr forum" ...a series loop so you need to use a top quality line level effect preferably.
Or use our mini mix with an effect capable of wet only. Remember though if using power section cranked type drive you will be distorting after the effect. The best way is our iso line out and a second power amp and cab for everything wet. That will capture all the drive and then add delay. You could also do this with an unused amp lying around like a small Fender combo that has an effects loop as the return for the effects..."
Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:25 am
"...To be clear a Line out (not the loop send) is what you need to the effect and second amps return. There are also some inexpensive SS power amps that will do the job."

[rgorke]

And every EP3 owning cork snorter will tell you that.

But of course.... (with my best snobby accent).

[rgorke]

Here are a couple of chit chats on the use of a buffer. There are arguments on bolphth sides about which is better, true bypass, buffer or both. Guitar Player even did an issue with Cornish and some cat named Friedman.

Does anyone know if the Boss GE7's have the buffer?

http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=41329" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=24528" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[vh junkie]

It's not that buffers are better than true bypass, or vice versa. Both can be combined to best effect. It all depends on what pedals you are using. I use a combination of true bypass and buffers. You can build the buffers right into your true bypass looper board.

You can build a nice Cornish style buffer using one of these boards:
http://www.muzique.com/schem/multi.htm
I have not tried any of the circuits here, I just use this board. I am a little leery about using modern opamps for anything because so much crap has been added in to the package.

This link talks about true bypass, but in part two also tasks about buffers:
http://www.muzique.com/lab/truebypass.htm

The bottom line, to me, is that yoiu don't want a buffer built in to every pedal... you don't want a buffer between every pedal... just where it makes sense in the chain given the pedals that are being used.

[dirtycooter]

I remember reading the article about how Mario from Axess Electronics (Ed used his stuff) designed the GRX4.
In the article it talks about relays vs 3pdt switches and all that shit.
Relays run a close 2nd place behind 3pdt, but relays have the edge in making "popless" or "clickless" true bypass. So you don't get the loud annoying pop sound when steppin on the switch.
Anywho..... you can generally run about 3-4 loops maybe a 5th before you will need to "reboot" the signal so to speak with another buffer again-given you have a good one right at the start of the chain. Think of it like this
"Low Impedence" means "less susceptible to getting f'd up". In other words when your signal is converted to low impedence by a buffer its more likely to survive all the horseshit in its path-jacks, pedals, cable runs etc etc.
EMG pickups are low impedence right out of the jack on the guitar itself-due to the active circuit they use.
Stacking different kinds of or too many buffers sometimes results in bad mojo in the end or maybe sounds fine. Depends on the whole thing in the end result and what you are using-so one has to discern for himself what can work and what may not for their own needs. You CAN hear these buffers YES. Some argue they change the tone un-naturally. But one has to also realize that maybe this low impedence signal is really what it is supposed to sound like before it goes through excess cable and the jacks and switches-all add a little obstacles for the weak ass signal the guitar puts out.
Ed has always had buffers from day one-be it the ep3, the boss or mxr e.q., to his modern day boards where c.a.e., axess, or Dave stuck one in there. If you flip the switches on a eventide factor series pedal for the line/guitar level matching you will and can perceive a slight bit of sharper treble in the guitar level position because thats where the buffers are switched in and out in the pedal-line level is stronger signal than guitar level so line level doesn't need it. But you will be suprised that while you can hear the difference, its so miniscule you will definitly neglect the worry over your tone. The place where the buffer is gonna make more of a tonal difference is between the guitar and amp input-thats a more drastic a/b as its not like switchin the buffers out and a/b'ing it in a line level scenario such as an amps fx loop or an aux loop on a mixer.
A buffer can dick up some pedals and make them perform poorly-some wahs and vintage fuzz circuits are worst effected.
If you plug in to his grx4 the very first thing it sees is his buffer circuit, then it either goes out to the amp or if any of the loops are open the signal makes its way tgrough those open loops first before headin to the amp input.
I used to have a true bypass crybaby on my board then went into the grx4-zero signal degradation-or at least amazingly close as you could be in my book. I shitcanned the wah and now have the current strobostomp tuner from peterson with true bypass.
Same results-I swear it sounds like a 10ft cord plugged in straight from the guitar to the amp-but in reality I have a tuner, flanger, orangebox, and mxr big yellow chorus. Not to mention 15ft of cable to the board and another 15ft or longer from the board to tge amp input.
So lets say you didn't want a midi controlled relay box like the grx4 and you wanna a little more old achool and simpler way to get the same results...one could make a dual loop true bypass deal for the phase and flanger and just pick up Friedmans Buff Puff to stick in front of it all for a quality buffer or suhr makes a nice super compact one with an isolated split output you can use to feed another amp, a tuner, or whatevwr you wanna drive with it.

[jnew]

Simple question.

1) If all the pedals in the chain are true bypass, is it safe to assume that no buffer is needed and the input of the amp would see the same signal as if the guitar was plugged straight to the amp?
(of course we're talking all the pedals in OFF or BYPASSED mode)

[vh junkie]

No, there will be signal loss through all of the cords. It should be the same as if you were plugged in to the amp with a cord equal in length to the length of all the cords combined.

[jnew]

Well, yeah that's to be understood. Good stuff.

[dirtycooter]

Other than using a good decent moderate length cable
anything else in the signal path, ANYTHING.... and it will start to drag its fat ass all over your tone.
It could be something as simple as goin over 18-20 ft of straight cable, to anything else.
Ed used fx we all know like the back of our hand-only one effect was on or off at a time. Unless you count the echoplex and phase or flange then its two.... maybe 3 buffers total if he was using an e.q. as well. Later years in Eds rig throw in a wireless and shit takes an unexpected twist yet again and a new spin comes in.
But even if you have a hard bypass true bypass box with top of the line 3pdt switches-its gonna drag its fat ass on the tone vs a straight 15ft cord straight in when you add up all the stuff in between
About 12-15ft of cable is good to the board. Then another 15ft from the board to the amp input. This isn't ridiculous or extravegant lengths for all sake of reality. Bam! Theres a fat f'n 30 ft of cable right there. Unless your goin to an Eric Johnson type of strategy and wanting the treble end roll off for tonal rezult-you are already losin tone. (But remember this when trying to un-brighten a buffer or cable-just add cable length for desired dull down) and also (choosing a buffer is a matter of taste).
Now add in the input and output jack of each loop and the resistance it will oppose to the weak guitar signal.
Now we are lookin at something that theoretically looks more like 40-50 ft of cable. You know thats not cool right from the get go.
A simple buffer recoups this loss. But some buffers like in true bypass pedals only appear when they are on when the effect is switched on. Some other pedals like boss that aren't really true bypass makes some alwaYs on buffer when on or off a certain amount.
Choosing a good buffer or one that you like is the same as with anything else-you pick your tubes, strings, cables, etc etc for your own preferences. You ever have fat chicks in a little 4 banger car then suddenly haul the same ones with a super duty power stroke deisel?? The deisel don't even know or care the fat chicks are there.... it just goes lol!
Some buffers are hissy dirty and some are clean, some have a characteristic shape to the sound. If you have ever heard really poor cable of the same length compared to really good cable same length-buffers differ in that same way depending on their quality and circuit design.
So if you wanted true bypass loops you would still benefit from one good ON ALL THE TIME simple straight up buffer.
Pete Thorn did a vid on youtube dealing with this fiasco exactly and its a good watch/learning thing.

[dirtycooter]

Don't over think buffers though. Something comes to mind that makes me laugh and thats the Joe Dirt movie.

Dude: hows the positive traction work in a 69 dodge charger??

Joe: I dunno. It just duuuz.....

Wouldn't it be nice to be only that involved in the scheme of things? Lol!

People got onto the ep3 pre thing flippin out. its just basically a buffer.... with a flavor...
Nothing more and nothing less. Maybe its all you need to buffer your tone.
Maybe the boost and drive from a e.q. is what gasses your tone up just right. You can adjust whats missing pretty much or whats bogged down in the path like not enough 6k bite or what ever gets lost. Sometimes boosting back the spot you want also magnifies the one you don't want like ... hey mr. Hiss likes hangin around 6k too, can I tag along for the ride?? Uh, no dude.
Generally a good buffer will be subtle and very quiet with little or no noise and sometimes strengthens the signal over background noise.
FETs and OpAmps. Cook em up how you want.
Some complaints of a decent typical buffer are-well it adds treble or bass or both....it changes the signal....
Maybe its the shit that was originally lost that you finally got back and you liked it better with the loss.
All in good taste and only you can decide if its cool or not. I like dark beer you may not.

Known straight up buffers out there?
Axess BS2-same thing in grx4-Cherone era VH tour board has one-has an ISO splitter
Tone Freak Buff Puff-Friedman/Axess collaboration (Dave may clarify the involvement) has bright/normal/dark switch
Suhr ISO buffer with splitter
CAE M403 I think it is called-line driver boost but just a buffer when turned down to zero boost. Hard bypass to hear buffered against non buffered difference.
LA sound design I think makes one
The EP Pre is considered one
And there are several other rig builders out there that offer their own custom order one offs.

[jnew]

Great job on the explanation there. I understand it all better now. And BTW, I like some of the high's throttled back just a bit by running a cord to the effects and then on to the amp. A head with all controls on 10 can be hard on the top end and shaving some of that treble fatigue can be nice. Just comes down to personal taste.