My JTM45 -- Sozo vs. NOS Mustards -- Listen and Decide.

mushmouth · Post by **mushmouth** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:22 pm

I built the JTM45 kit, which came with standard Sozo caps. I wanted to find out how much of a difference NOS mustards would make as the sole element of change from the stock kit. I don't think the difference is subtle. You decide.

I kept everything set up exactly the same between caps changing, so all settings are the same before and after, unless noted.

*sidenote: mustard caps were NOS, so not broken in. They only have about 4 hours of break-in on them at the time of these recordings. The Sozo standards had about 50 hours on them.

The Other Gear:
Cab -- Metro straight 4x12 cab with G12M 20 watt Heritage
Attenuator -- Hotplate, set at -8
Mic -- SM57, 2.5 to 3" back
Preamp -- Mackie 24x8 VLZ preamp into FireStudio interface into Logic.
Guitars: '57 Historic Goldtop Gibson Custom Shop Les Paul, '56 Custom Shop Relic Daphne Blue Strat

No EQ, compression, etc added. Mp3s encoded at 256k. Constant bit rate.

Pics of settings and mic distance:

1a) Back In Black (AC/DC) -- Les Paul -- Sozo standard caps
http://www.mushmouth.com/metrobuild/01_ ... zo_reg.mp3

1b) Back In Black (AC/DC) -- Les Paul -- NOS Mustards
http://www.mushmouth.com/metrobuild/02_ ... stards.mp3

2a) Sometimes Salvation (Black Crowes) -- Les Paul -- Sozo standard caps
http://www.mushmouth.com/metrobuild/03_ ... zo_reg.mp3

2b) Sometimes Salvation (Black Crowes) -- Les Paul -- NOS Mustards
http://www.mushmouth.com/metrobuild/04_ ... stards.mp3

3a) Are You Gonna Go My Way (Kravitz) -- Les Paul -- Sozo standard caps
http://www.mushmouth.com/metrobuild/05_ ... zo_reg.mp3

3b) Are You Gonna Go My Way (Kravitz) -- Les Paul -- NOS Mustards
http://www.mushmouth.com/metrobuild/06_ ... stards.mp3

***4a) Cold Shot (Stevie) -- Strat -- Sozo standard caps
http://www.mushmouth.com/metrobuild/07_ ... zo_reg.mp3

***4b) Cold Shot (Stevie) -- Strat -- NOS Mustards
http://www.mushmouth.com/metrobuild/08_ ... stards.mp3

*** Cold shot-- this is really not a fair comparison because I realized after the fact I did the sozo standard clip with my guitar volume all the way up, and I had it down to about 7 for the NOS Mustard clip. You can still hear the character change, regardless.[/b]

UPDATE (4/24/08):

I've gone into Logic and balanced levels so they are both sitting at the same nominal level. The playing field has been leveled.

You can go back and click the links again if you've already heard them. I replaced the files.

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:36 pm

Very nice - like you say, not subtle. Were those the 0.018 and 0.1's?

mushmouth · Post by **mushmouth** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:39 pm

Sparky wrote:Very nice - like you say, not subtle. Were those the 0.018 and 0.1's?

Yup. Those are the caps.

Before I throw out my opinions, I'm interested in hearing what other people notice most about the differences in tonal characteristics, feel, etc.

Listen with good headphones or on a good system -- I encoded them at 256k. I think it's night and day different.

6string · Post by **6string** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:40 pm

That's a drastic difference.

Did you leave the mic and cab set up the whole time you did the swap, or could the mic possibly have moved?

mushmouth · Post by **mushmouth** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:42 pm

6string wrote:That's a drastic difference.

Did you leave the mic and cab set up the whole time you did the swap, or could the mic possibly have moved?

Nothing was moved. At ALL.

So elaborate on what you're hearing... what you noticed...

mushmouth · Post by **mushmouth** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:55 pm

I wish I had a full set of Sozo premiums to swap out now while it's STILL set up so we could compare all 3 apples to apples.

The 12 series George built for me has the premiums in it, and I heard the same tonal jump from my jtm45 with sozo standards to the 12 series with premiums as I heard here between the standards and real mustards. Granted, not apples to apples, but somewhat validates the argument that the Sozo premiums are much closer to original mustards.

SO, if that's the case, I'm gonna side with Rockstah on this (from an old thread) and say why is there even a STANDARD cap? If the goal is closest to NOS Mustard as possible, wouldn't you by default remove the standard from the line? The price difference isn't big enough to justify that huge a change in sonic quality, in my opinion. And premiums are still FAR cheaper than NOS mustard. After I've spent that many hours building an amp from scratch, I'm not skimping over tiny amounts of cash for this kind of difference.

When I "mustard" my 12 series, I can compare premiums vs mustards in that head...

marT · Post by **marT** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:48 pm

What I hear in those clips is pretty much what I found when I went with NOS mustards too. They sounds more open and clear IMO and sweeter.

Of course the Sozo premiums are probably much closer/dead on the mustards but I haven't tried them.

OnTheFritz · Post by **OnTheFritz** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:05 pm

Mush, I definitely hear a difference, for the better IMO with the Mustards, but did you change any values as well?

Noticed a post mentioning a different value, .018, so if you changed caps *and* value(s), can't really say it's a fair comparison.

908ssp · Post by **908ssp** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:05 pm

Well the difference was so profound that I have a hard time believing it. Huge difference the Mustards were clearer cleaner but still warm and crunchy just sound fantastic.

As far as prices of Sozos they have changed as have Mustards in just the last year or two. I think it was about a year and half or so that I was building my 18 watt and I was going to use the premium Sozos but I could get Mustard for only slightly more now the Sozos have gone down and the mustards have gone up. In light of that the premium Sozos are a deal compared to Mustards and the standard Sozos are not enough of a savings to warrant them. So if the premium Sozos sound like Mustard they are well worth the price.

mushmouth · Post by **mushmouth** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:40 pm

OnTheFritz wrote:Mush, I definitely hear a difference, for the better IMO with the Mustards, but did you change any values as well?

Noticed a post mentioning a different value, .018, so if you changed caps *and* value(s), can't really say it's a fair comparison.

I actually went with the .018s because George and several others had said the difference of that particular value is not sonically perceivable. And they're actually CHEAPER than premium sozo .022s! However, I have enough NOS .022s coming and will be redoing my 12 series as well, which has premiums in it. I think that's going to be an even more interesting comparison.

908, yeah, I could hardly believe it either. The descriptions so far are what I noticed right away too: sweeter, much more open, rounder, more "tubey" sounding, for lack of a better word. There's a certain "character" the mustards have that the sozo standards don't. Its like when you see an apartment from 1911 with thick wood moldings and hardwood floors... there's a character that emanates from it. That's how I feel about the tonal difference here.

I also think it's going to sit in mixes better. The mids are more rounded out, it's more vocal, so it can sit lower in a mix and it'll still sound "louder." If you've tried to mix a sculpted out guitar sound into a mix, you know what I'm talking about. It sounds like a real plexi to me now.

I should add in fairness, I'm not expecting the sozo premium vs mustard comparison to be anywhere near as dramatic. My 12 series with premiums already HAS the above characteristics, so much so that I may be wasting my money trying. But try I must.

5150loveeddie · Post by **5150loveeddie** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:21 pm

Wow, that was really interesting, good stuff dude, old Philips are much clearer, define more open, Sozo are dirtier.. Wonder how the premium would go for.......

You must do it again with premium dude!!

thx

mushmouth · Post by **mushmouth** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:29 pm

5150loveeddie wrote:Wow, that was really interesting, good stuff dude, old Philips are much clearer, define more open, Sozo are dirtier.. Wonder how the premium would go for.......

You must do it again with premium dude!!

thx

Well... Hmmmm. After I switch out the premiums in my 12 series with mustards, I'll only be 2 .1/400v caps short of switching out NOS mustards for premiums in my JTM45. Maybe I could do it then, and will if I can get all my caps in hand within a couple of weeks here. I'm moving in 3 weeks, thus my "unmoved, unchanged setup" will then be tainted. I'll see what I can do.

If not we can at least compare the premiums with NOS mustard on the 12 series.

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:45 am

The 0.018's are only $4 ea (shameless spam

) but if the difference between caps was their value, you'd expect the 0.018's to have slightly less bass. I think what I'm hearing is not that at all but a difference in the distortion characteristic - less raspy and sweeter. I'd be interested in hearing Mallories as well.

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:21 pm

You really need to normalize the tracks. That alone biases things in a huge way. Even if theyre off by 2dbs theres a huge perceived sonic difference. The mustard clips are clearly louder. That on its own makes people perceive things as fatter and clearer. Its just a much better comparison when the levels match.

The Sozos sounded clearer but mostly just had a LOT more low end. More of a smile EQ shape. The mustards had more of an even or flat EQ especially in the low end. Thats something consistent with my findings of the normal sozos too and I actually like them in fenders for that reason. The mustards to me, are clearly the better 'marshall' cap in this instance tho I know people who do prefer to standard to vintage caps. Id like to hear one of these for vintage sozos.

I took a sample of each and normalized their levels and put them on my soundclick link below. Listen again. I hope you dont mind mushmouth?

6string · Post by **6string** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:10 pm

Billy... I came to the same realization this morning as far as the Sozo clips being lower in level compared to the the Mustard clips. That definitely will tend to bias opinions. The level difference could have occurred in several places in the chain. The pre, the interface, the mix when converted to MP3's, voltage out of the wall, etc... I too, adjusted for this when listening. There is still a difference, though not as pronounced as you will perceive if you don't realize what the level difference is doing.

I hear the mustards as a bit more complex and organic. The midrange is where this happens for me. I do not hear more mids in the mustards... just different frequencies... they're centered in a different spot, like if you were to sweep the frequency being dipped on a parametric eq. There does appear to be more apparent low end in the Sozo clips.

I'm more curious to here this repeated with the premium Sozos, which are what I used in my build.

This is quite similar to the difference that I get between a 103 OT and a Radio Spares OT.