Missing Covers, RIC Cones, G12 Greenback 25 watter 75hz?

[vkaxeman]

Looked at what looks to be about a 1976 - 1960 Bass Lead Slant Cab today. Opened up the cab and none of the speakers had the plastic Green, Black, Grey, Cream covers on them?? Looks like there is glue residual there where covers were? Anyway stamped on all 4 frames is T1221. All 4 cones started with RIC or R1C. For instance one had RIC 1GY stamped on it. One had RIC LHC and yet another RIC 1 HA. I forgot to write down the RIC xxx code from the 4th speaker. Are these recone or an original cone and how do you tell if it is 55hz or 75hz speaker by the cone code? I am assuming they must be 75hz 25 watters based on the T1221 code on the frame and the Original Marshall sticker on the back of the cab reading
Type Bass Lead
Stock NO. 1960
Watts 100
Impedance 15ohm-8ohm per ?????? This part of label gone
Serial No. A 50803

Date Code on Frames hard to read/tell as well. 3 of the frames appear to have GJ14 X on them and the 4th one with GJ14 Y.
Depending on which way the picture is the First chracter looks like a backwards 3 or a G possibly with part of the letter missing. Or is it a B? Either way guessing the speakers must be from 1976 based on the J in the second position. What does the trailing X and Y mean?

And how much would this cab be worth?

Pics of the amp/cab that I looked at today: http://www.vandelynkross.com/m2204.htm

Thanks!

[Ted B]

I am assuming they must be 75hz 25 watters based on the T1221 code ...

And that should be correct. The "RIC" cones appeared for a period in the mid '70s, after Celestion ceased using the Pulsonic cones, and before going (back) to the Mueller cones. It's just that someone unwittingly removed the plastic covers (probably cream backs), which caused the confusion.

[vkaxeman]

It's just that someone unwittingly removed the plastic covers (probably cream backs), which caused the confusion.

So the creamback covers were mostly on RIC xxx Coned T1221's?

[Ted B]

Not exactly. IIRC, most of the RIC coned Celestion speakers I've seen had cream backs.

[Jeff West]

Ah, G12Ms . . . going by the chassis date codes, the creambacks and greybacks started at the very end of 1973 and had pretty rapidly supplanted the greenbacks on both M and H models by early 1974. Blackbacks started in 1975 and continued to '79, but there were still some creambacks into mid 1976 at least, in fact I've got a "GJ" July '76 creamback T1534. However, the modal mid '76 G12M or G12H would definitely be blackback in my experience.

The cone codes don't correlate perfectly with the plastic color, I've seen "3"s and "4"s on early creamback, etc. But it is true that RIC cones were extensive in 1974 and earlier 1975 on creambacks, on both M and H. It's actually not common to see them on mid '76 T1221, which typically have "1777" codes, IME.

"RIC" (or "R1C", or "R/C", by various schools of thought) was actually a much older cone designation (reflecting "Rola/Celestion", it has been said) that I've seen stock on late 1950s and very early '60s alnico Celestions. The following numbers on these cones (after "RIC") so far seem to defy easy explanation by anyone I know of, and Celestion denies any records. Many start with either "1" or "2", and it superficially kind of fits that the "2" is a lower resonance version of the "1", but there are too many apparent exceptions. In fact, I've seen 1974 T1221 and T1234 that have identical original "RIC" cone codes and this doesn't fit per Celestion's typing scheme, which was usually pretty consistent for resonance spec. There might be date info in there too. "H1777"/"1777" also greatly predated the ceramic Celestions, and has always been a Celestion standard part code #, not cone manufacturer's, raising the possibility that it could sometimes have appeared on cones from more than one source (Mueller). Incidentally, Kurt Mueller cones used by Celestion in the '60s vs. '70s were manufactured in different factories in different countries.

Another very short-lived original cone code you might find on mid-1974 creambacks (usually 6/74) is "98700". This one also appeared variously on T1221, T1511, and T1234, i.e., across nominal 75 and 55c/s models!

The "trailing letter" code on the chassis like "X" was a specific inspector designator.

[Ted B]

Ah, glad you chimed in. The real question is, how do the R1C cone kits compare (audibly) to the warmer Pulsonic '003' and the crisper Mueller 'H1777'. I ask because I do not believe I've (knowingly) played through a 4X12 loaded with R1C G12M or H.

[Jeff West]

I’d be interested in others’ impressions, but I do think they can sound a little different than either, especially on the “bass” versions”. I think the lower spectrum is a little different than Pulsonic, which are the champions of fat and warm and smooth.It’s like they dialed out just a little of the “woman tone” on the RICs in favor of straightforward crunch. Then the mid-late ‘70s “1777” and “444” are louder, crisper, max in your face. This is feeling a little prissy to write, though, they all have something great to offer when working well IMO.

It’s known there were some other changes in these Celestion models ca. ’73-’74 besides the cone itself, like the way the VC former was rolled and the apex of the cone was dipped, and these may have shifted them in a brasher rather than softer direction too.

As it happens, before I left Memphis earlier this summer I had been part of a little informal shootout setup with three T1281s (G12H30 55 c/s 16 ohm) of different vintages/cone codes that I had, each in it’s own 1 x 12 cab: 1970 nonlabelled greenback with 102 014, 1974 creamback “Marshall” with RIC, and 1977 blackback “Marshall” with 444. ’73 Marshall 1987 with Ibanez SD9 with tone and drive at min, for some drive at levels that wouldn’t just blow ‘em up. When you compared these A:B, it’s striking how much “louder” seeming the blackback is, esp compared to the greenback. With those two run in parallel and side by side, the tone of the ’77 dominates. The creamback sounds like a lead version compared to the Pulsonic, even though they’re both T1281s, in fact I’d say the RIC is closer in sound to a 003 than 014.

Of course, those are three specific speakers and one model, even comparing two from the same year with the same cone codes can yield significant diffs in tone.

I know some readers here have ’74 creambacks with “RIC”s inc Jim, what do y’all think?

[Scumback Speakers]

Hey Jeff! Well, here are my impressions, based on my minimal experiences with R/C cones.

I acquired a 69 slant last year with some 74 CreamBack G12H30's in it. Pretty sure they were the T1281 55hz models. IMO they sound fuzzy, and less defined than the pre rola T1281's with the Pulsonic 014 cones. I also acquired a 70 slant with four BlackBack T1281's, and those speakers were awesome. In fact, I was so impressed with them, that I decided to recreate their specific tones for my new BlackBack BM75 and BH75 series speakers (now on the site).

I felt the BlackBacks were louder, crisper, more aggressive and "in your face" for tone compared to the pre rola models, or the R/C cones.

I've been so busy getting the production going here in California (and taking a forced vacation that ends in 2-3 more days) that I haven't revisited that R/C loaded cab lately. I'll be doing that again soon to make sure there's nothing wrong with the speakers, which will require waveform testing, and playing it with an amp, too. If it still sounds like it did last year, I'll likely rebuild those T1281's into my new paper voice coil 25w models.

So to summarize:
1) Pre Rola tone, warm, fat tones with a slightly softer treble response.
2) BlackBack tone, more aggressive, not as warm as pre rola with a sharper upper mid/treble cut, with a touch more volume.
3) R/C sound (like you said) somewhere in between those two, but due to what I heard, it sounds like I may have a couple of bad speakers in that R/C CreamBack loaded 4x12, so I can't say definitively what I hear from them, other that what these sound like, which so far haven't been real impressive.

I was shocked by the BlackBacks I got in that other cab, though...hence the new BlackBack series I'm offering now.

Hope that helps!

[Ted B]

So to summarize:
1) Pre Rola tone, warm, fat tones with a slightly softer treble response.
2) BlackBack tone, more aggressive, not as warm as pre rola with a sharper upper mid/treble cut, with a touch more volume.
3) R/C sound (like you said) somewhere in between those two, but due to what I heard, it sounds like I may have a couple of bad speakers in that R/C CreamBack loaded 4x12, so I can't say definitively what I hear from them, other that what these sound like, which so far haven't been real impressive

Just for clarification (since it isn't mentioned), when you speak of black backs, I am assuming you are referring to the '1777' Mueller cones. If so, yes, those cones in general are a crisper sound with more forward upper mids - a different texture and nice contrast to the relatively mellow Pulsonics.

[Scumback Speakers]

Just for clarification (since it isn't mentioned), when you speak of black backs, I am assuming you are referring to the '1777' Mueller cones. If so, yes, those cones in general are a crisper sound with more forward upper mids - a different texture and nice contrast to the relatively mellow Pulsonics.

Yes. I figured since Jeff already put the 444 and 1777 cones in his post that the cone #'s referenced by BlackBacks was understood.

[Jeff West]

Hey Jim- Thanks for your impressions. I've gotta say that for me too, much fuzziness in a Celestion is kind of a deal breaker, but FWIW I don't remember the particular creamback I was comparing as excessively fuzzy sounding. I could see calling it somewhat thinner than the way gratifyingly thick-yet-articulate 014.

Hey Ted- Yeah, the 1777 but I would also characterize the late '70s 444s as louder/sharper sounding and more in yo face than 014 greenbacks, really rocking, there were numerous 25 and 30W blackback models w/444 that can sound excellent live IMO, they used to be readily available and comparatively cheap after the pulsonics weren't. If Jim's '70 slant with later blackbacks has T1281s as I think he said, then those will have 444s not 1777. The only diff is that the bass cones are slightly lighter and thinner on the edge/surround (well, the spiders are different too). The blackback T1217s 30W 75hz with 1777 are really edgy and forceful, I like those cones better in 1221s myself.

J

[Jeff West]

Vkaxeman- Did you get to play those T1221s w/RICs? If so what were your impressions? Thx-

[Ted B]

If Jim's '70 slant with later blackbacks has T1281s as I think he said, then those will have 444s not 1777.

Yes, of course, I always get those G12H 'T' numbers confused (55Hz vs. 75Hz).

[Scumback Speakers]

Yes, of course, I always get those G12H 'T' numbers confused (55Hz vs. 75Hz).

I've got a whole Greenback ID thread here if you want to kill an evening or two.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... adid=67646" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Basically BlackBack (post 1974) G12H30 T1217 and G12M T1221's used 1777 75hz cones. T1281 G12H30's and T1511 G12M's used 444 55hz cones.

[Ted B]

I've got a whole Greenback ID thread here if you want to kill an evening or two.

Yep, been there, done that, enjoyed it, saved it for quick reference, thanks. You kinda skipped over the Pre-Rola G12C though ...

Celestion's basic fame/cone scheme is easy as pie. I just get tripped up on the G12H 'T's.