Metropoulos Forum

Hey there guys!

In the last couple of weeks I've been pretty disappointed with my cab. It's an early 80s "JCM800 Lead Series" cab with 240w.
So I guess there are some G12H65 in it? I never cared to check, but will do in the next couple of days.

To make it short: I don't like the sound I get out of my cab. My setup is a Gibson R8 and a MetroAmp JTM45 (fully stock) with TAD tubes. Don't misunderstand me: I've been able to get some pretty sweet tones out of it! But mostly with tricks: Standing besides the cab, the cab facing a wall in a 30° angle, putting a duct-tape-X on the grill-cloth where the speakers are, and and and... But when standing in front of the cab, directly facing it, the sound is horribly harsh, icepicky and just so trebly for me. It's not smooth at all! If the cab is facing a wall, yeah, then the sound in the room is pretty nice and the JTM begins to shine!

But now we're trying to record and even though I tried a shitload of different mic placements, different mics, different recording input levels I still can't get the sound - and I know the sound is there! On good days, when the cab is placed in a perfect spot in the room I love the tone I get. But it's nearly impossible for me to record. Some guy on the LesPaulForum has the exact same setup and he got a beautiful tone with a cheap interface and a SM57. He said he used a 4x12 cab loaded with 75w and could never get the tone he wanted. He changed his cab and now he's happy.

And to be honest: I never tried a different cab with my amp. My financial possibilities are not that much... and even in Berlin, the amount of guitar shops where they have the appropriate cabs to get a nice vintage tone is clearly limited. Not to speak of shop where you can actually crank that amp...

What I want is that full, singing, percussive, vocal-like lead tone (think Duane, Kossoff, Beano...) with a chugging rhythm sound that's clear and not muddy but smooth and has nice overtone rich shimmering highs. The highs I get from my cab just hurt. Doesn't help my playing inspiration that much, to be honest.

Now I was thinking about buying a handwired Marshall 4x12 with G12H30 Heritage speakers. Udo Pipper praised it in one of his articles in Gitarre&Bass as a "carefree" cab, that's just right out of the box. After doing some research I came a lot of posts on the internet in which people said that specifically the G12H Heritage sound icepicky and too harsh and need a lot of breaking-in.

The G12M Heritage are supposed to be smoother, warmer and more fitting for a JTM45. That made me curious. Now I took a step back from ordering the Marshall 1960AHW with the Heritage G12H. Maybe the G12M are what I'm looking for.

But I can't find a Marshall cab that is built today with G12M Heritage speakers. Please correct me, if there is something like that! Now I can't just go ahead and order four G12M Heritage speakers, without ever hearing them. Not to talk about re-selling them and losing money.

What I found is this: http://kleinanzeigen.ebay.de/anzeigen/s ... d=19202010" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; -- A Marshall 1960 AX cab loaded with '4 x 12" Celestion G12M/25 "Greenback" Speaker' and about two years old.
What speakers are those? Are they as good as the Heritage series? Or just a cheap re-issue that's not even close to the old Greenbacks or even the Heritage ones.

I'm pretty confused and desperate here guys! I need some help! My choices would be: Buy that Marshall handwired cab with the G12H30 and if I don't like it, send it back in 30 days (might be hard to break the speakers in in that period of time - that's the main point I'm concerned about).
Or go and check out that 1960AX cab... Or buy some G12M Heritage...

As I said before, my choices are limited financial wise. If not, I'd surely spend the extra cash and get a Scumback cab because I only heard good things about them! Now I've got to work with what I've got.

Maybe someone can point me in a direction or give his opinion of the different speakers, or tell me how the speakers in the 1960AX cab might be .. And if you have a question: just ask!

Cheers!

Thorsten

MrNugget wrote:In the last couple of weeks I've been pretty disappointed with my cab. It's an early 80s "JCM800 Lead Series" cab with 240w.
So I guess there are some G12H65 in it? I never cared to check, but will do in the next couple of days.

Worse than that - probably M70s.

MrNugget wrote:What I want is that full, singing, percussive, vocal-like lead tone (think Duane, Kossoff, Beano...) with a chugging rhythm sound that's clear and not muddy but smooth and has nice overtone rich shimmering highs. The highs I get from my cab just hurt. Doesn't help my playing inspiration that much, to be honest.

Percussive makes me think G12H, particularly with a JTM45 which does not have the tightest bottom end out of the box.

MrNugget wrote:Now I was thinking about buying a handwired Marshall 4x12 with G12H30 Heritage speakers. Udo Pipper praised it in one of his articles in Gitarre&Bass as a "carefree" cab, that's just right out of the box. After doing some research I came a lot of posts on the internet in which people said that specifically the G12H Heritage sound icepicky and too harsh and need a lot of breaking-in.

Yes they do take a lot of breaking in. It took me a couple of years to get mine sorted, I then got to complete my vintage cabs with good vintage ones so the cab and speakers went on ebay.

MrNugget wrote:The G12M Heritage are supposed to be smoother, warmer and more fitting for a JTM45. That made me curious. Now I took a step back from ordering the Marshall 1960AHW with the Heritage G12H. Maybe the G12M are what I'm looking for.

If you want warm and smooth with speaker break up as part of your tone then the G12M Heritages are just that.

MrNugget wrote:But I can't find a Marshall cab that is built today with G12M Heritage speakers. Please correct me, if there is something like that! Now I can't just go ahead and order four G12M Heritage speakers, without ever hearing them. Not to talk about re-selling them and losing money.

Yes it is risky.

MrNugget wrote:I'm pretty confused and desperate here guys! I need some help! My choices would be: Buy that Marshall handwired cab with the G12H30 and if I don't like it, send it back in 30 days (might be hard to break the speakers in in that period of time - that's the main point I'm concerned about).
Or go and check out that 1960AX cab... Or buy some G12M Heritage... or tell me how the speakers in the 1960AX cab might be .. And if you have a question: just ask!
Cheers!
Thorsten

The AX will probably have standard M greenbacks - most are Chinese production and are ok, but not special.
I quite often see vintage stuff on ebay.de.
My suggestion is to check what speakers are in your cab now, then we can point you in the right direction. A set of decent Hs ( a second hand set will almost certainly be broken in) will work as will Ms (the Heritages being best option) but they are not cheap.
I went through all this the hard (and maybe expensive, until I sell some thing on) way. I have settled on a 69 Basketweave B with G12H30 75s, a 69 Basketweave A with G12M25 55s, a 68 pinstripe A with G12M20 75s and a pinstripe B with G12H25 55s and a late 70s B with G12-65s. I also have other cabs in various states of repair/disrepair but the above cover all the bases I need.

Thorsten, I have the exact same AX cab as that ad but a 2006 not 2007 in mint condition with marshall cover that I don't use and need to sell £320 (368 euros) excl. postage

Sorry for the spam post

Sorry guys for not responding, but I was a little busy the last few days.

So I took off the back of my cab and it looks like the speakers are Celestion G12-65. Here is a pic of one of them:



I think they are supposed to be really good speakers, right?

Also yesterday I tried that Marshall 1960AX cab with the Celestion G12M25... the newer Greenbacks, not Heritage, but Reissues from 2-3 years ago. The thing is: I didn't like my sound at all with that cab yesterday. It was too muddy, too dull but, standing in front of it, the highs were again really piercing and when playing chords with the JTM fully turned up to 10 and the bridge pickup on the Les Paul it just sounds really... bleh. The bottom end of the chord sounds muddy, dull and the high's just to shrieking, too distorted.. not smooth at all.

Chords sound even better with my cab. So now I don't know what to do. I start to think, that it's the amps sound that I don't like... even though we built it completely stock and exactly as said in the instructions. I'm clueless! I wish I could tell if it's the amp, the cab or the pickups in the guitar... I don't know if it's possible for a JTM45 to sound like that...

MrNugget wrote: Also yesterday I tried that Marshall 1960AX cab with the Celestion G12M25... the newer Greenbacks, not Heritage, but Reissues from 2-3 years ago. The thing is: I didn't like my sound at all with that cab yesterday. It was too muddy, too dull but, standing in front of it, the highs were again really piercing and when playing chords with the JTM fully turned up to 10 and the bridge pickup on the Les Paul it just sounds really... bleh. The bottom end of the chord sounds muddy, dull and the high's just to shrieking, too distorted.. not smooth at all.

Your description of greenbacks matches mine; I like 'em for some things, but the low flub and hi screech doesn't always work for me either.

If you can, try to check out some of the g12H speakers, or their clones (cheaper ones like WGS or mojo thru the reissues thru the booteek ones). In general, they have the creamier sound, firmer bottom, and less strident top end, comparably.

Dave

elronhoover wrote: If you can, try to check out some of the g12H speakers, or their clones (cheaper ones like WGS or mojo thru the reissues thru the booteek ones). In general, they have the creamier sound, firmer bottom, and less strident top end, comparably.
Dave

Yes I agree - I am afraid that is a feature of newer speakers - the harsh top end. When well broken in that is what smooths out. You may find that some G12Hs (particularly the Heritages) are like that too. The prerolas that have survived 40years of use without breaking are now very smooth. I hated modern G12Ms - they all went on ebay, but really like the '68 20watters and '69 T1511 Ms but in general my go to cab wears G12Hs
They are certainly tighter in the lower frequencies which helps a JTM45, although it will appear louder due to the 3dB sensitivity difference.
A way of helping the 45 flub is to replace the 330/220uF cap on V1a with a 4.7uF or 2.2uF first (similar to turning the bas to nearly 0.
What bypass caps are you running on your 45 and what are your typical settings?

I've two cabs loaded with 1978 G12-65 and they really sound good. Anyway, can someone tell me about X pattern G12M+G12H loaded in 412...

Did J

Did J wrote:I've two cabs loaded with 1978 G12-65 and they really sound good. Anyway, can someone tell me about X pattern G12M+G12H loaded in 412...

Did J

Unless you have the cab totally hammered for volume you will lose most of the Ms in the output of the Hs due to the 3dB increased sensitivity of the Hs.

I think Jim at Southbay has this issue sorted with his Ms and HS?

neikeel wrote:

Did J wrote:I've two cabs loaded with 1978 G12-65 and they really sound good. Anyway, can someone tell me about X pattern G12M+G12H loaded in 412...

Did J

Unless you have the cab totally hammered for volume you will lose most of the Ms in the output of the Hs due to the 3dB increased sensitivity of the Hs.

I think Jim at Scumback Speakers has this issue sorted with his Ms and HS?

Fixed that for you, sir! I had to incorporate for various reasons this year (taxes, etc), so I'm now officially Scumback Speakers & Cabs.

I didn't fix it so much as I designed the M75 (G12M pre rola tone) to be 97db, and the H75 (pre rola G12H30 tone) to only be 2db apart instead of the 3-4 db apart the G12M and G12H30's are.

So once you're 5-6 feet away from the cabinet, you hear both speakers since they punch in different registers of tone. M75's are more lower mid/mid/upper mid based, H75's are low/low mid, upper mid, clearer treble (without the icepick treble) based.

Hope that helps. I'm buried here, folks, four cabinets and 32 speakers got ordered yesterday. So I haven't been online much since I've been so busy. Sorry.

Ok gents

Did J