DOD 250 GREY SPEC MODS

[yngwie308]

This is why Outlier's mods capture the essence of the Grey Spec 250's, the use of other boost devices may yield a similar sound, but as you say a good 250 can always be detected.
I managed to download a fantastic session from Yngwie from the Deep Purple Hub, it's called "I Surrender" and is from the Odyssey albums rehearsal sessions. The tone Yngwie get's on these demos is absolutely incredible and imho better than the Alcatrazz tone even!
Yngwie plays the vocal melody lines as well on these tracks, plus some incredible Deep Purple covers.
I think I like the tone on these demos better than the finished album!
The correct amount of sustain and just the right amount of pedal distortion, the rest power tube saturation!!
We always hope the new CD will have more of the 'old' tone and less of the 'new' tone these days. Yngwie always sounds great live, just the overuse of compression at the Baroque and Roll 308 studio, has been the culprit. Other than a few times, I hardly ever listen to UTF for this reason. Also the Live in Budokan '94 show DVD had one of Yngwie's best later years tone as well. The "Live" DVD and CD recorded in Brazil and mixed by Yngwie wih some help, is atrocious
I treasure in my head the version of "Cherokee Warrior" that Yngwie performed at the soundcheck for his Tucson '05 show, simply incredible. So Yngwie is perfectly capable of capturing his best tones recently. The reason I am referring to Malmsteen's tone here, is that John's pedal magick has really opened up the earlier Yngwie tone for those looking for a kickstart to their tone chase
I would like to hear Outlier's 250 with a 50 watt Metro '71 spec and a YJM, as one of George's signal chain setups at the amp show coming up!!
Again welcome to Outlier here at Metroamp Forum, he is an invaluable asset to the proceedings here!
Cheers
yngwie308

[outlier]

Again, thanks for the kind words, Dave. OK, here's a secret: I actually like "Unleash the Fury" and I kinda like Yngwie's guitar tone on that...

I don't mind the sound of the stock YJM308 and am keeping one stock for myself. It's just that the more trebly and edgy sound isn't quite what the pedal purports to be: A reproduction of Yngwie's favorite 250. I think anyone can hear that and it was all finally settled when Mike Spitzer posted internal pics of Yngwie's No. 1 and No. 2. That finally culiminated the research John in New Zealand and I were doing up until that point. We'd long contended that "definitive" 250 mods may not reproduce the old Yngwie sound as until then, we didn't know the characteristics of Yngwie's 250s. We'd also ID'd four or five basic 250 circuit variants with further variations based on parts substitution, etc. Again, it's my belief that parts subsitution went on quite a lot based on cost considerations and not tonal characteristics not believed to exist. Engineers for the most part didn't seem as picky as your average basement boutique pedal wizard builder is now and say, one opamp from one manufacturer was considered the same as the next. That seemed to be the belief of the time, and one that has been confirmed to me by long-term employees and engineers of musical electronics firms.

So again, I think there were some unintentional happy accidents. In the course of trying to duplicate that (and not make the 308 sound like a Boss overdrive or whatever it is someone's trying to say), I got to thinking, "Huh, I think I'm on to something here..."

So it all started with John in New Zealand and Jovan in Serbia talking theirs up and then it took off from there. And again, I was so happy that you liked yours, I really had my fingers crossed, as you're likely THE Yngwie expert on the Internet.

Speaking of the Tube Screamer, I believe that Yngwie uses his more than many expect. I have an '83 Ibanez TS-9 and four Maxon OD-9 Overdrives with various modifications. The one I most recently modified is basically stock with some component upgrades and a '70s Texas Instruments Made in Malaysia RC4558P. A good sound, just a bit different. The others all have early '80s JRC4558D chips in them.

And on the subject of Double Live, Dave, what don't you like about that sound? I always thought it sounded good...

[Kapo_Polenton]

What do you think of the Maxon OD-9's anyway? I almost bought one a while back. But then i got to thinking, do i really need another OD? So i ended up finding this thread and got one of yours

Personally think Yngwie's live tone now is a tad edgier and spankier. I think it is the Vintage Moderns that he has taken a liking too. To be honest, i hear clips of this amp and it sounds bright and somewhat sterile to me a lot of the times. I would think Yngwie would be better off using a reissued JCM800... close enough to the JMP's anyway. Boost it either way and everyone will be fooled. Also in agreement that he has to lay off the compression. ... and the crappy go on forever senseless solos.

ps- Eclipse still ranks as one of my favs! He had it all then. Chops, taste, tone.

[outlier]

The Maxon OD-9 is a fine pedal in its own right. It's the Tube Screamer circuit sans FET switching. Switching is done via a mechanical 4PDT switch. So there's no coloration from the FET switching and the sound is a bit more pure. Stock, it's a great pedal.

My most recent modification started out as my stab at that Clay Jones Overdrive / Landgraff Dynamic Overdrive circuit. Some of you will be familiar with that whole tempest in a teacup. I was curious to see what all the noise was about.

As the CJOD/LDO is a modified Tube Screamer circuit with mechanical switching, I thought an OD-9 would be the perfect platform. Modified it in accordance with Clay's "Grand Laff Dynamic Overhype" schematic and truth is, I didn't like it. I just don't care for the sound of red LEDs as clipping diodes. Also has more gain on tap, but I don't really need that. So I reverted it back to the basic OD-9 circuit, the main difference being that RC4558P. Much more usable for me.

For me, there's a lot to like of all the Yngwie eras. Still, if I had to pick, I'd go for that early solo or Alcatrazz period for his tone. That's what I was trying to accomplish and I believe I have.

[yngwie308]

On Double Live, it is the boominess, maybe the mix of live microphones to board sound ratio is wrong. Just sounds wrong to me, underwater, ect. I am a funny old goat anyway with my ears, I'm the one who dosen't care for Jimi's Monterey tone remember!!
When I listen to CD or what I was more used to LP's, I try and decipher the guitar out of the mix in my head. If you compare Budokan '94 with Double Live, they are world's apart. Also the distortion is buzzy or like a jar of bees to me. Hope you can decipher my colorful adjectives..lol.
The thing about SM-57's is, they are from a different era and were praised for their abilty not to be destroyed stuck in the middle of a Marshall 4X12" cranked!
Other types of microphones are better suited to recording a guitar tone. The Vortex technique, for example is still successful and was uses on Magnum Opus, which I do like.
I am not suprised that Yngwie uses a Tubescreamer frequently!! Recently I have become disatisfied with my guitar setups and have messed with almost all my guitars, they aren't sounding the same with my Handwired and the tiny volumes I am forced to play it at.
So maybe I am more cranky than usual!!
Have you heard this bootleg from the Odyssey sessions John??
yngwie308

[Kapo_Polenton]

Youliked MAgnum Opus??? I remember Yngwie himself saying he did not care for that album and the rushed production.... but then Alchemy was not soo hot production wise and War to End All Wars sounded like it was recorded in a big cardboard box with some guitar thrown in over bass that was recorded in a bathroom... god that album sucks. Magnum Opus atleast had some decent song writing.. now singing is a diff story. Vescera is only slightly worse than Ripper Owens as a fit for Yngwie. There was only one Jeff Scott Sotto after all!

Tube screamers i think are a great match for Marshalls. I am using a bad monkey which i find to be close enough and i prefer it to my SD-1 to be honest. I would like to try a TS-808.. less gain and more clean boosting would be perfect for my JCM800 I bet.

So what affordable mics would you use in favour of an sm57?

[Tone Slinger]

I hear some say a cheap behringer mic is good. I have the 57.

Regarding those into Playing/sounding like Malmsteen. I wasnt saying that a 250 in any way could sound like a tube screamer or a super overdrive. Im saying that the 250 circuit inherently sounds more open,loose and grainier in comparison. One could take the values of the 250 back closer to the MXR Distortion + spec (DOD ripped them good) and get a crisper,tighter tone with more gain,but at the expense of a bit less bass and more compression. I honestly think many going for the 'grey' 250 tone would actually prefer an MXR Distortion + in certain 'blind fold' tests. I say this cause most dudes who use my various 250 tweaks always claim that they are a bit flubby and TOO big and smooth in the neck single coil. A MXR distortion + tweak cures these problems.

Yngwie used a grey 250 and the yellow 250 in the Jan. '85 Japan shows. Those units were more than likely stock. That is a very simple circuit, and the components are VERY available (excepting certain runs of the 741). I find only SUBTLE differences for the most part in this op amp.

I think that if one has a good Marshall top, a 4/12 25 watt celestion loaded cab, a good strat, AND, the ability to play like Yngwie, any 'original' grey spec 250 would do.

[Tone Slinger]

By the way, I'm not trying to be negative in anyway concerning anyone's results with a particular pedal. I'm just saying that if someone is after a 250,like Yngwie used, then there isnt a whole hell of alot to it. Now if someone 'changes' the circuit,then it ISNT a 250 like Malmsteen used is it ? My favorite '250esque' sound isnt pure 250 .

[outlier]

Did someone say that Yngwie's pedals weren't stock? Did I miss something? EDIT: This comment is in response to a comment now deleted.

That out of the way, I honestly believe I have identified certain OOP components used in certain 250 production runs that make all the difference in the world. At least they do for me and a few others seem to agree. That I'm grateful for. My modification merely seeks to mainly duplicate a critical aspect of this 250 circuit variant and improve the quality of components elsewhere. If someone wants to say, "well it's not a 250 now," as it's not blueprinted to the official schematic, fine.

Of course, as always, YRMV, etc.

[Tone Slinger]

I kinda think that these exact production variations being talked about didnt repeat themselves from the grey era to the early 80's yellow era. Malmsteen used both.

[Tone Slinger]

Being fair about it though, if you dont mind, just where in this circuit are you getting your results from ? I definatly need to try what all this talk is about, just to be totally fair (what you got,some old 741's or something ?)

[outlier]

That's why I wrote "certain 250 production runs." I wasn't setting out to duplicate every period of 250 production, just what I was interested in.

As I wrote, this all started as something fun, just hobbyist tinkering, not some grand business venture and then to my surprise, took off a bit. That's all.

[outlier]

Being fair about it though, if you dont mind, just where in this circuit are you getting your results from ? I definatly need to try what all this talk is about, just to be totally fair (what you got,some old 741's or something ?)

Oh, now that's going to be my little secret...

You're not the guy copying and pasting and putting the modded 308s and kits on eBay, by any chance?

[Tone Slinger]

I understand.

[yngwie308]

Let me weigh in here! Yes I like certain tracks on Magnum Opus, like Voodoo in particular, that has Yngwie's goldtop playing the rhythm track. As far as microphones go, let me get back to you on that, I need to research some data I have and have been extremely busy lately with work and painting the inside of my house.
Outlier has hit on a great aspect of killer grey spec 250's there is no doubt. His mods are well worth the money, ect.
Those from the Malmsteen forum know this, Yngwie's tones aren't that easy to cop...exactly, that is. I have heard many attempts and have yet to find one that sounded as close as the Outlier mod! I disagree about the neck pickup as well. On my 2004 YJM Strat, the neck pickup is the bomb with the Analogman/Outlier YJM308 pedal I have.
It is the pickup postion that Yngwie plays in 90% of the time, he only hits the treble pickup to open the mouth of the vibrato, or accentuate the run.
By the way nobody switches pickups faster or cleaner than Yngwie. I always thought he took out the springs from the switch or something, but apparently not.
If only 25% of the CSI analysis applied to EVh was used on Yngwie, than we might know more, but maybe not. I have heard literally hundreds sound close to EVH, but none to Yngwie, including Paul Gilbert, ect. I thought Jason Becker's early high school version of Black Star was closest in feel, than anything I have heard since.
Yngwie's secret is Yngwie, that's what makes him unique.
yngwie308